Elon reveals Cybertruck details / production expectations on Q3 2023 call

[Sirfun]

thanks for that. I’m not tone deaf, and have no small amount of self-consciousness about how nerdy, ultimately unimportant (in the grand scheme), and time consuming all this is. To say nothing of embarrassing when I let myself get sucked into the mud.

Ultimately, I rationalize that there are worse things I could use this spare time on, and much of it is actual directly or indirectly relevant learning for my business/industry (edge compute and AI, also distributed infrastructure).

Plus, I find the mystery-unraveling fun, and that there are at least a few like-minded folks who don’t mind - and who tend to be the ones that also give me ‘ah ha’s’

You included - thanks again

Good Morning cvalue13, I mean absolutely no ill will towards you. My intention was to avoid going down a path that could lead to getting sucked into the mud also. I find a lot of your comments on here as meaningful and interesting (even if they can a bit long), I read most of them.
I have no intention of carrying on with our discussion. However, I would like to point out a thread I posted in 2020 about the similarity of Tesla and In-N-Out. And clarify the reason I mentioned them as a comparison to McDonalds is because they're both burger joints (fast food).

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/tesla-is-like-in-n-out.1964/

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[PilotPete]

Tesla has already started using the franchise model with their charging infrastructure. I wonder how long it will be before they announce the first franchise Tesla dealership? Maybe never, but I bet nobody thought they would do it with their charging network either. It seems Tesla has figured out there are advantages to that business model.

It's very dangerous to confuse the intent of an action. I don't believe Tesla has changed the business model at all. And looking at it from a complete business view, to make the leap to vehicle sales doesn't work.

Tesla has a mission. Not a stupid "mission statement" of "vision statement" that someone hangs on a wall to get the crowds behind them. It appears this is a real no kidding belief those high up believe. That mission is the conversion of all vehicles to electric, as well as move the world away from non-renewable and fossil fuels. Selling superchargers to a 3rd party holds many benefits toward that mission. It increases installations, density of locations, avoidance of monopoly threats, provides pricing competition for the consumer, provides additional cash to Tesla to increase their business, and (maybe mostly) moves an oil producer away from oil and encourages them to develop another source of income. This will make BP less inclined to fight legislation requiring electric vehicles, less inclined to spread propaganda against electric vehicles, and more inclined to support Tesla's efforts in that direction. Where adding dealers doesn't fit with the way they do business, only makes them less affordable (at the current margins), reduces their pricing flexibility, and just gums up the whole process in general. Don't confuse apples and oranges.

 

[HaulingAss]

Tesla has already started using the franchise model with their charging infrastructure. I wonder how long it will be before they announce the first franchise Tesla dealership? Maybe never, but I bet nobody thought they would do it with their charging network either. It seems Tesla has figured out there are advantages to that business model.

Tesla is not using the franchise model with their charging infrastructure; it's wholly owned by Tesla. Selling DC fast chargers to competing charge networks is not franchising, it's manufacturing and sales.

 

[Dusty]

I prefer the dealership model because it gives me more choices and I can actually negotiate a deal instead of being told the price. I like getting a good deal.

And I have had good experiences with the dealers I have worked with. Yes, they have tried to get more revenue by offering things I don't want, but you can say "no".
. . .

The dealership model, you kidding me?

Why should you be forced to play a game with an entity who's primary purpose is to get you to pay more for something at your own detriment?

Why should a 60 year old widower or novice buyer pay, literally, thousands more for a car just because they didn't study the art of haggling along with sifting through dozens of car models and ad-speak?

Why should I have to deal with an asshat acting like he's selling me the Pope's Bugatti, and doing the "Hmmm I don't know...Lemme check with the manager" for an entire afternoon, all so I can't go find a better price that day elsewhere?

Why do I have to go find out how to get a vehicle's shipping manifest to uncover the dealer unit price, just so I can buy a fkn car and not get overcharged?

Bye dealerships!
Don't feel sorry for them at all. I don't have time for them.

 

[cvalue13]

Good Morning cvalue13, I mean absolutely no ill will towards you. My intention was to avoid going down a path that could lead to getting sucked into the mud also. I find a lot of your comments on here as meaningful and interesting (even if they can a bit long), I read most of them.
I have no intention of carrying on with our discussion. However, I would like to point out a thread I posted in 2020 about the similarity of Tesla and In-N-Out. And clarify the reason I mentioned them as a comparison to McDonalds is because they're both burger joints (fast food).

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/tesla-is-like-in-n-out.1964/

FYI, I agree with the IAO comparison, and remember your linked thread from when you posted it.

It was a toss up, ultimately leaning towards Cracker Barrel because it’s a twice as large, in many more states, and has the added complications (from an operational complexity standpoint) of its side-hustles in the general store.

But ultimately, either are merely a useful (as analogies get) example of a vertically integrated to the retail POS ~manufacturing like company requiring distributed infrastructure - in contrast to a large franchise model that outsources retail POS

zero I’ll will here, either - as in the main I’m preternaturally comfortable with debate absent emotion (with some obvious exceptions depending on nature of the ‘debate’ - you excluded)

 

[PilotPete]

Bye dealerships!
Don't feel sorry for them at all. I don't have time for them.

 

[Knucklehead]

The dealership model, you kidding me?

Why should you be forced to play a game with an entity who's primary purpose is to get you to pay more for something at your own detriment?

Why should a 60 year old widower or novice buyer pay, literally, thousands more for a car just because they didn't study the art of haggling along with sifting through dozens of car models and ad-speak?

Why should I have to deal with an asshat acting like he's selling me the Pope's Bugatti, and doing the "Hmmm I don't know...Lemme check with the manager" for an entire afternoon, all so I can't go find a better price that day elsewhere?

Why do I have to go find out how to get a vehicle's shipping manifest to uncover the dealer unit price, just so I can buy a fkn car and not get overcharged?

Bye dealerships!
Don't feel sorry for them at all. I don't have time for them.

You wrote a very entertaining reply. And there are a lot of truths in it, of course.

I guess my question is, why does the direct model ensure that people don't pay thousands more for a car than they need to? I would argue the ability to negotiate a better deal than the seller originally offers means the buyer can pay thousands less, not thousands more.

So when Tesla starts offering franchise dealer opportunities, how will you react? I would consider buying one myself.

 

[PilotPete]

I guess my question is, why does the direct model ensure that people don't pay thousands more for a car than they need to? I would argue the ability to negotiate a better deal than the seller originally offers means the buyer can pay thousands less, not thousands more.

If Tesla will make a car for $40,000 and sell it to anyone, where is the profit for a dealer? Tesla has to reduce the price to sell it wholesale, or the dealers are going to offer the car over sticker?

The current move in dealerships is fixed pricing. You don’t have to pay your salesmen as much, and the public prefers them. So again, I don’t see the upside here.

I’ll go back to the actual business. If Tesla truly believes their mission is to move the world away from ICE vehicles, and they are selling everything they make, and they have the ability to adjust pricing realtime and at any moment, what is THEIR benefit to dealers? You might be a great negotiator, but the MAJORITY of customers aren’t. And car dealerships make MOST of their money in the service department. With BEVs needing so much less service than their ICE counterparts, how is that model going to work? If you think people are upset if they get their Model S on Monday, and Tesla drops the price on Wednesday by $5,000, wait until you do that to a dealer! “What do you mean the new MSRP is less than our current floor cost for the same model?!?!?!”

If you want to cash in on the EV craze, and you want to be affiliated with Tesla, and there isn’t a SC near you, then buy some land, build a SC, and lease it to Tesla. I have a feeling that’s the closest you will get to a dealership.

 

[Knucklehead]

If Tesla will make a car for $40,000 and sell it to anyone, where is the profit for a dealer? Tesla has to reduce the price to sell it wholesale, or the dealers are going to offer the car over sticker?

The current move in dealerships is fixed pricing. You don’t have to pay your salesmen as much, and the public prefers them. So again, I don’t see the upside here.

I’ll go back to the actual business. If Tesla truly believes their mission is to move the world away from ICE vehicles, and they are selling everything they make, and they have the ability to adjust pricing realtime and at any moment, what is THEIR benefit to dealers? You might be a great negotiator, but the MAJORITY of customers aren’t. And car dealerships make MOST of their money in the service department. With BEVs needing so much less service than their ICE counterparts, how is that model going to work? If you think people are upset if they get their Model S on Monday, and Tesla drops the price on Wednesday by $5,000, wait until you do that to a dealer! “What do you mean the new MSRP is less than our current floor cost for the same model?!?!?!”

If you want to cash in on the EV craze, and you want to be affiliated with Tesla, and there isn’t a SC near you, then buy some land, build a SC, and lease it to Tesla. I have a feeling that’s the closest you will get to a dealership.

Because Tesla sells directly to the consumer, they have to absorb the cost of doing that. They definitely could sell their cars to a dealership for less than they are selling them to the consumer and still make the same profit. If they do it right, they could make more.

Tesla has a mission. Not a stupid "mission statement" of "vision statement" that someone hangs on a wall to get the crowds behind them. It appears this is a real no kidding belief those high up believe. That mission is the conversion of all vehicles to electric, as well as move the world away from non-renewable and fossil fuels.

To meet that mission, selling dealership franchises will help them reach that goal much more quickly. Don't you think a dealership in every town that has a Ford dealership will help them sell more cars?

On a side note, man do so many people hate, HATE dealerships. Is it worse than being a lawyer? Maybe I don't want a Tesla dealership. ?

 

[PilotPete]

Because Tesla sells directly to the consumer, they have to absorb the cost of doing that. They definitely could sell their cars to a dealership for less than they are selling them to the consumer and still make the same profit. If they do it right, they could make more.

I think you are seriously overestimating the cost of direct sales. Think about Shark Tank. How many times do they say "No, you don't want to go wholesale. Stay consumer direct" The greatest benefit to dealerships is the ability to reach more customers. Problem is, Tesla is already selling every car they make. Unless there becomes a currently non-existent part of the country that they can't reach without a dealership, there is NO reason to go there. None. If they just backed out any direct sales costs, there wouldn't be enough for a dealer to mark up. And again, the dealership makes MOST of their money in the service department. Ain't gonna happen with Teslas.

To meet that mission, selling dealership franchises will help them reach that goal much more quickly. Don't you think a dealership in every town that has a Ford dealership will help them sell more cars?

You can't sell what you don't have. They don't have cars that don't sell. They have a standing inventory of about the same or less as the major OEMs, yet the OEMs have dealerships. I don't see any upside for Tesla, or the dealers.

On a side note, man do so many people hate, HATE dealerships. Is it worse than being a lawyer? Maybe I don't want a Tesla dealership. ?

You are the first on the scene where a car (obviously a non-Tesla, because of pedestrian braking) has run over a pedestrian. How can you tell if it was a car dealer or a lawyer?



(wait for it)




There are skid marks before the lawyer.

 

[Gurule92]

You wrote a very entertaining reply. And there are a lot of truths in it, of course.

I guess my question is, why does the direct model ensure that people don't pay thousands more for a car than they need to? I would argue the ability to negotiate a better deal than the seller originally offers means the buyer can pay thousands less, not thousands more.

So when Tesla starts offering franchise dealer opportunities, how will you react? I would consider buying one myself.

Those negotiations are like when you buy something on Black Friday only to find out they jacked the price a month before to look like you got a good deal. Really you still got ripped off.

 

[charliemagpie]

Dealerships are just an outsourced function, whose licensed owners are accustomed to their lifestyle. Understandably after all this time, wish to keep their business.

Maybe some ossification in that business, and back to the beginning to selling and servicing your own cars is the way to go.

 

[cvalue13]

The dealership model, you kidding me?

Why should you be forced to play a game with an entity who's primary purpose is to get you to pay more for something at your own detriment?

Why should a 60 year old widower or novice buyer pay, literally, thousands more for a car just because they didn't study the art of haggling along with sifting through dozens of car models and ad-speak?

Why should I have to deal with an asshat acting like he's selling me the Pope's Bugatti, and doing the "Hmmm I don't know...Lemme check with the manager" for an entire afternoon, all so I can't go find a better price that day elsewhere?

Why do I have to go find out how to get a vehicle's shipping manifest to uncover the dealer unit price, just so I can buy a fkn car and not get overcharged?

Bye dealerships!
Don't feel sorry for them at all. I don't have time for them.

funny thing about all these replies along this vein: I read them and only think “there’s someone who doesn’t know how to buy a car from a dealership”

mall the ‘games’ being played, are being played on you, not everyone

 

[cvalue13]

Those negotiations are like when you buy something on Black Friday only to find out they jacked the price a month before to look like you got a good deal. Really you still got ripped off.

you know it’s possible to find the data on exactly what the car cost the dealership, determine a fair profit for the dealer, email 20 dealers the offer, and prepare for no one to take it - yeah?

mid no one takes it, it’sbecause you’ve misjudged what a fair profit is on a given model (because they have an available market better than what you’re willing to pay)

again, there are good dealerships and bad dealerships.

but there are also good buyers, and bad buyers

just because an OEM makes everyone pay the same price when the own the ‘store’ doesn’t make it a ‘good’ price

people unwittingly talk out if both sides of their mouth when they say “Tesla stores are better because you know you’re getting a good deal,” then two breaths later say “Tesla’s amazing because it has a 23% margin on their cars”

choose the right vehicle, choose the right offer, choose the right dealership, and one can get a very good deal

if you instead must have that special cobalt blue paint job, feel all offers are alike, and feel all dealers are alike - then the ‘bad deal’ one gets may be in part the ‘fault’ Of the dealer, but it’s not all their fault - mirror time

 

[charliemagpie]

The dealership's KPIs would weigh towards profit.

No matter how smart the customer is, he/she is at the mercy of someone who does the same thing every day.

And there are too many unscrupulous salespeople.

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