...A Zero Motorcycle!

[Crissa]

Okay, it's not fair at all. A used Zero can be had for $6K and even the fanciest one doesn't break $30K. You get two seats and no DC charging.

But a Zero is a great complement vehicle. It can fit in places not even a compact car will go. And the DS and FX models are great offroad - and at trail speeds, you can get many, many miles.

You've had an electric motorcycle for a while now. It's been almost three years, hasn't it?

I'm curious how the Zero price/specs have evolved over your ownership. Are currently available ones significantly better in terms of range/power/charge time/throttle response/regen braking response or have they largely stayed nearly the same since your purchase?

Background:
My spouse (30 years experience riding street, she currently rides a Ducati Scrambler) got me a used Zero to learn on. And so I did! It let us have an EV while the market wasn't quite ripe for us (we currently drive a 2013 Mazda 3). A Model Y or Model 3 would do, but each of those would cost 3x or 2x what our Mazda did... And weren't options for 7 years and 3 years past when we bought the Mazda.

A motorcycle is great for those grocery trips and appointments. And in states with filtering/lane splitting, traffic congestion just really doesn't matter. It also is great to get outside and in the weather. (Well, except when weather is 'on fire', but...) And there are options that aren't a motorcycle per se, but similar in efficiency (Arcimoto, Aptera).

My Zero is a 2014. That's about when Zero really 'got it'. This is their Cypher II bike, using an aluminum street frame. It's air-cooled and has few smart functions. There's three riding 'modes' and one of them I can change the settings to (torque, braking regen, throttle regen, and max speed). It doesn't have cruise control, though the newer models do. It has a 8.5kWh battery and gets a bit over 80 miles city/combined. It still does! But having the smaller battery means it's more affected by the weather but is lighter. When full up, I can easily hit 95 mph on the highway. But it's not really a highway bike; I'd use up my battery in about a half-hour like that. And I'll slowly lose speed as my pack voltage drops, it's about max 68mph at 30%. My charging is pretty limited: While originally designed to do some DC, it turned out many charge points were out of spec, and so that option was removed about six months after they offered it. There's a 3kW charge tank but it's no longer made, and a few do-it-yourself third-party options, but I mostly just charge once or twice a week at 1.7kWh from my dryer tap.

I really like it! Unlike noisier bikes, everyone seems to like you. Well, except people who don't like bikes filtering, I suppose. And even my small-battery, eight-years-old, small-motor (literally they don't make 'em this weak anymore) bike can out accelerate anything to 30mph, and lots of things to 60. It's just great. And because of the customizable ride-settings, it kinda grew with me as I grew in experience. I could limit the torque while I was clumsy, and now that I'm not... Well, I still usually only use 70% of it.

In 2016, the Zero lineup got a better power management. They can fast charge on optional 6kWh charge tank, which is still offered. They also got a bigger battery. Anything 2016 and newer just doesn't have the same limitations as a 2013-2015 bike in terms of power management. They stay at top speed longer, and don't overheat as much. In 2020, they came out with the SR/ Cypher III bikes, which are bigger, heavier, and can have up to 12kW (like a Tesla Destination charge point) charging stock.

My bike is made of 3x2.8kWh battery packs; the current bikes are made of 4x3.6. It's stepped up a few times! That makes the biggest bikes' city ranges in the 200+ mile range, or more than 100 miles at 70mph on the freeway. While mine is really limited to places I can sit and charge, or just dinking around the county, the new bikes can do day trips or even road trips easily. Like, after an hour or two in the saddle, you need to stretch, right? It's just a completely different pace than an ICE bike.

I really want to get a DS or FX ... Or even this bike and strap it to the back of my Cybertruck for roadtrips. That way I don't have to tip-toe my way up trails or into town and fight for parking while camping somewhere ^-^

-Crissa

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[HaulingAss]

Okay, it's not fair at all. A used Zero can be had for $6K and even the fanciest one doesn't break $30K. You get two seats and no DC charging.

But a Zero is a great complement vehicle. It can fit in places not even a compact car will go. And the DS and FX models are great offroad - and at trail speeds, you can get many, many miles.



Background:
My spouse (30 years experience riding street, she currently rides a Ducati Scrambler) got me a used Zero to learn on. And so I did! It let us have an EV while the market wasn't quite ripe for us (we currently drive a 2013 Mazda 3). A Model Y or Model 3 would do, but each of those would cost 3x or 2x what our Mazda did... And weren't options for 7 years and 3 years past when we bought the Mazda.

A motorcycle is great for those grocery trips and appointments. And in states with filtering/lane splitting, traffic congestion just really doesn't matter. It also is great to get outside and in the weather. (Well, except when weather isn't 'on fire' but...) And there are options that aren't a motorcycle per se, but similar in efficiency (Arcimoto, Aptera).

My Zero is a 2014. That's about when Zero really 'got it'. This is their Cypher II bike, using an aluminum street frame. It's air-cooled and have few smart functions. There's three 'modes' and one I can change the settings to (torque, braking regen, throttle regen, and max speed). It doesn't have cruise control, even, though the newer models do. It has a 8.5kWh battery and gets a bit over 80 miles city/combined. It still does! But having the smaller battery means it's more affected by the weather but is lighter. When full up, I can easily hit 95 on the highway. But it's not really a highway bike; I'd use up my battery in about a half-hour like that. And I'll slowly lose speed as my pack voltage drops, it's about max 68mph at 30%. My charging is pretty limited. While designed to do some DC, it turned out many charge points were out of spec, and so that option was removed about six months after they offered it. There's a 3kW charge tank but it's no longer made, or third-party options, but I mostly just charge once or twice a week at 1.7kWh from my dryer tap.

I really like it! Unlike noisier bikes, everyone seems to like you. Well, except people who don't like bikes filtering, I suppose. And even my small-battery, eight-years-old, small-motor (literally they don't make 'em this weak anymore) bike can out accelerate anything to 30mph, and lots of things to 60. It's just great. And because of the customizable ride-settings, it kinda grew with me as I grew in experience. I could limit the torque while I was clumsy, and now that I'm not... Well, I still usually only use 70% of it.

In 2016, the Zero S lineup got a better power management. They can fast charge at 6kWh charge tank, which is still offered. They also got a bigger battery. Anything 2016 and newer just doesn't have the same limitations as a 2013-2015 bike in terms of power management. They stay at top speed longer, and don't overheat as much. In 2020, they came out with the SR/ Cypher III bikes, which are bigger, heavier, and can have up to 12kWh charging stock.

My bike is made of 3x2.8kWh battery packs; the current bikes are made of 4x3.6. It's stepped up a few times! That makes the biggest bikes' city ranges in the 200+ mile range, or more than 100 miles at 70mph on the freeway. While mine is really limited to places I can sit and charge, or just dinking around the county, the new bikes can do day trips or even road trips easily. Like, after an hour or two in the saddle, you need to stretch, right? It's just a completely different pace than an ICE bike.

I really want to get a DS or FX ... Or even this bike and strap it to the back of my Cybertruck for roadtrips. That way I don't have to tip-toe my way up trails or into town and fight for parking while camping somewhere ^-^

-Crissa

Thanks for the thorough answer! That was more than I was asking about but I found it interesting and informative.

Wow! I didn't know you had such an early model! It sounds like they have made some pretty massive improvements since then. Do the new models have liquid cooling for the batteries or just the motor/motor controller?

I haven't seen the e-bike I want yet. It's a 100-120 lb. e-bike that is built more like a heavy-duty full-suspension mountain bike than a motorcycle although it has foot pegs instead of pedals (I already have an e-MTB and love it but it's still a bicycle). The e-bike (motorbike) I *want* would have a top speed of 60 mph but would generally be ridden below 30-40 mph. It needs to be licensed as a street-legal motorcycle even though it looks more like a mountain bike. At 35 mph it has a maximum range of around 100 miles and it has regen braking for efficiency in the mountains.

But I've never seen anything close to this even though I know it's feasible to build with current technology. It would probably cost around $15K. I would put two of these in the Cybertruck!

 

[Crissa]

Energica uses some liquid cooling, but so far Zero does not. Zero really focuses on the least maintenance possible: Direct drive belt, air cooled, lots of heat sinks.

Bikes really are on the edge of what's possible with EVs. They want power, but don't have the weight or space for the batteries that make that possible. The first EVs have always been sorta heavy... That Zero can make bikes in the same weight-class as the bikes they're replacing is a good deal.

There are alot of grey-market fat-tire e-bikes that are not quite one, not quite the other, but they are very cool. We really do need some standardization of licensing of the different vehicles... In California we have the class M2 but it's really not useful since we require the same to get a class M why would anyone bother?

But there needs to be a place for the Class IV/moped. The more people on these, the safer we all are (and the less traffic there is).

There are quite a few not-quite-a-Zero motorcycles coming out in the next couple years that top out at 60-70mph but beat Zero's price. So yeah! Soon.

-Crissa

 

[Cybr on]

Hello Crissa:0)
I’m actually pondering selling or possibly trading my bike in for a Zero. I’ve read about a program like
“cash for carbon” would you happen to know a little about their trade in process and if this program or possible future programs are coming?
thank you.

 

[Crissa]

Hello Crissa:0)
I’m actually pondering selling or possibly trading my bike in for a Zero. I’ve read about a program like
“cash for carbon” would you happen to know a little about their trade in process and if this program or possible future programs are coming?
thank you.

Yeah, they've done it multiple times before to move dealer stock.

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/cash-for-carbon

Just like Tesla, it's easier to build bikes with fewer parts so these are often the bikes with less charging (their chargers are modular but not really dealer serviceable).

No idea when they'll do it next.

Best is on the used market... they keep their value but move slowly so sometimes you can get a deal. This one is about like mine (slow charging, slightly better motor, way better battery, not very upgradeable) but has all the things already on it:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/mcy/d/scotts-valley-2015-zero-sr/7470419590.html

So keep an eye peeled and you may score a deal. If you want faster charging, you want a 2016 or newer, and then get a charge tank. The power tank is very special purpose and only really works if installed when the bike is new.

-Crissa

 

[SparkChaser]

Been thinking about this. I sold my last bike about 4 years ago and really miss it. An EV bike seems like the way to go. Trying a use one might be the entry am looking for.

 

[ldjessee]

I really like Zeros, test rode several, but the kind of motorcycle I want, they do not make.
That was the only reason I didn’t buy one.
Well, that and I am not as limber and have issues getting on a motorcycle with a tall seat height.
But I dream someday someone will make an EV Bagger!
Maybe some day soon?

 

[Crissa]

I really like Zeros, test rode several, but the kind of motorcycle I want, they do not make.
That was the only reason I didn’t buy one.
Well, that and I am not as limber and have issues getting on a motorcycle with a tall seat height.
But I dream someday someone will make an EV Bagger!
Maybe some day soon?

-Crissa

 

[ldjessee]

Yeah, I watched that!
I have been following feet forward designs for a few decades.
Not great for off-road, but for road use, much more efficient layout.

 

[Crissa]

Not as good in traffic, though, because of lack of visibility and the big boxes will block line of sight.

But a great idea otherwise. And... Not at all like riding a motorcycle with regards to skill. (about as different as an Arcimoto, and both easier than a motorcycle).

Today I road over the mountain and traffic kept getting out of my way so I used 20% more power than usual because no drafting lead to a tad bit of speeding ^-^; Got home with 0% battery. Oops.

-Crissa

 

[ldjessee]

Today I road over the mountain and traffic kept getting out of my way so I used 20% more power than usual because no drafting as a tad bit of speeding ^-^; Got home with 0% battery. Oops.

-Crissa

I think that is a job well done!

 

[SwampNut]

There are alot of grey-market fat-tire e-bikes that are not quite one, not quite the other, but they are very cool.

I just got what I think you are referring to. Mine is "only" 5kW but they go to 15k commonly, and some people are pushing 18k. Mine will approach 50 MPH, and the larger ones over 90. Mine is not fat-tire, it's standard bike tire. The versions above 5k have to go to a motorcycle wheel and tire, no bicycle tire can handle it. They typically have a variant of a Yamaha 125 tire/wheel.

There is absolutely no legal position for this thing in our laws, or in most states I researched. It's not a legal bicycle. It's too fast to be a moped. I could turn it into a "home built" in AZ, but not in CA, where I don't think it can be legal at all, ever.

I plan to ride it as a bicycle and see what happens. My playground is mostly desert and if it's not making noise, nobody will complain. Plus there's no cop vehicle that could catch this in the desert.

I'm upgrading my rear brake rotor to 220mm today, because stopping this monster on an e-bike 203mm is not good. It's just a stupid bike, and I love it.

I wish I could justify a Zero in the stable. I like them, and yet none really fit my desired usage. As it is we have three electric bicycles now. You can also basically build your own Zero-like bike, and that's attractive to me, but the wife will freak if I add yet one more project to the shop. There's already a 1972 two-stroke in pieces.

 

[Crissa]

In California it's totally legal as an OHV. Since it has no emissions. And while very difficult, it's not impossible (but possibly undesirable) to license them as motorcycles.

They do need a space. I'm hoping we allow more EV use of these lanes - but like the old triangle the powered bikes need to go slow and yield to the other users.

-Crissa

 

[SwampNut]

The OHV thing is a "sort of" for both CA and AZ in that they can use the fully open off-road areas, yes. But both states have restricted areas where bicycles including e-bikes up to certain power specs and speeds can go. This is above that. My house is surrounded by open desert, the first few miles of which are "no motorized vehicles" because of a weird federal EPA issue (not emissions, dust). This bike is neither a motorized vehicle in AZ nor a bicycle. I'm currently waiting for an official clarification letter from MVD.

As you say, e-bikes have to be cognizant of other users and I hope the assholes don't ruin it. Just last weekend while I was purposely on a slow pedal-only ride through a park, an e-biker passed me in a crowded pedestrian area at triple my speed.

Another issue area is the disparity in classifications and power limits between states. One state considers anything over 250 to be a motorized vehicle.

 

[Crissa]

Boat users have the same problem. You need to be aware of no-wake zones and speed zones which are slightly different things but in some ways similar to no dust or slow speed zones... And these new devices just make the difference between one and the other even more stark.

-Crissa

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