Anyone else concerned about fog without radar?

ajdelange

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No, that's not what Tesla is saying.
Evidently you missed it but a presentation by Telas's Dr. Karpathy was posted in No. 23. You should watch that and pay particular attention around 26:55 et seq.

They have told us that vision only will perform at a higher level than vision plus radar.
No. Actually what he says is that they didn't handle the fusion right and it's not worth fixing this as vision by itself is good enough. He would never say vision by itself is better than vision plus radar because it is untrue unless the radar is faulty and Tesla's is. Can it be fixed? He says it can. Is it worth doing? He says it is not.

What we hear is influenced by our previous experiences and knowledge. What I hear from Dr. Karpathy is, evidently, quite different from what you or my wife would hear.

Humans don't use radar to drive.
Yes, yes they do and sonar and GPS too. Were they able to drive in the past without those things? Yes, of course they were so you might question whether they are really needed. But the goal of FSD is not only to save labour but to make transport safer. Vision certainly has a role to play in this but so do sonar, radar, lidar, GPS, Glonass, electronic guideways...
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HaulingAss

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Evidently you missed it but a presentation by Telas's Dr. Karpathy was posted in No. 23. You should watch that and pay particular attention around 26:55 et seq.
Yes, I already saw that, I just interpret it differently. In that there is a time penalty with fusing radar and vision such that it will perform better than vision alone. There is also a resource penalty in terms of the hardware already on cars. So vision will outperform vision plus radar for an unknowable amount of time. Potentially indefinitely. That's what Karpathy essentially said.

No. Actually what he says is that they didn't handle the fusion right and it's not worth fixing this as vision by itself is good enough. He would never say vision by itself is better than vision plus radar because it is untrue unless the radar is faulty and Tesla's is. Can it be fixed? He says it can. Is it worth doing? He says it is not.
He also doesn't say vision plus radar will outperform vision only. All he says is they can fix the current conflicts, given enough time. That does not imply it will outperform a vision only system that is also upgraded to take advantage of the resources previously consumed by radar.

Sometimes the devil is in the details!

What we hear is influenced by our previous experiences and knowledge. What I hear from Dr. Karpathy is, evidently, quite different from what you or my wife would hear.
Obviously I heard it differently than you because you failed to consider the system resources consumed by the fusion of radar and vision, probably because you have little familiarity with how artificial intelligence and machine vision actually work. By applying those resources to better vision processing, it's likely to outperform an optimized version of radar and vision on the same hardware. That's what Karpathy has actually said.

Yes, yes they do and sonar and GPS too. Were they able to drive in the past without those things? Yes, of course they were so you might question whether they are really needed. But the goal of FSD is not only to save labour but to make transport safer. Vision certainly has a role to play in this but so do sonar, radar, lidar, GPS, Glonass, electronic guideways...
Karpathy has decided radar does not have a viable place in FSD. At least not the way he's planning to implement it. Were you not listening? And, yes, he's planning to make it safer than human driving is.
 
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ajdelange

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I think it is time for us to mutually realize that I can no more set aside the perspective gained in practicing systems engineering for 50 yrs than you can gain it in 4 years of reading books. This means that we will never converge. Keep studying and you may one day gain enough to understand what is going on here - or understand it better than you do now, at any rate.
 

Crissa

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I think it is time for us to mutually realize that I can no more set aside the perspective gained in practicing systems engineering for 50 yrs than you can gain it...
Dude, nothing you posted in this thread is engineering. It's not programming, either.

And telling people they can't understand your brilliance is uncool.

-Crissa
 

ajdelange

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Rivian has finally started talking. RJ revealed in a recent round table with reservation holders that they invited to come out to Normal to drive the truck that it has 4 radars (and lots of cameras and sonars too). He did comment that this is "thousands of dollars worth of sensores". That does make me feel more comfortable than the Tesla approach.
 
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