Anyone else concerned about fog without radar?

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jhogan2424

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The model S still has radar so in that case it seems both systems failed.
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jhogan2424

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Thank you for the video! This is almost exactly the situation I had imagined. It would be absolutely impossible for a camera only system to have detected and stopped. Absolutely impossible.
In this video you can plainly see the hood of the car nosedive from automatic braking before the driver was ever aware of the stopped traffic ahead. Not only was the driver unaware, neither were the Tesla’s cameras!
 

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In this video you can plainly see the hood of the car nosedive from automatic braking before the driver was ever aware of the stopped traffic ahead. Not only was the driver unaware, neither were the Tesla’s cameras!
Tesla owners can confirm but my understanding is the “beep beep beep” is the auto braking
 

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You should watch Dr. Karpathy's presentation on Tesla's FSD, explaining why fusing together vision and radar was less successful than vision alone.


This video is why I'm a believer in the vision-only paradigm, although I agree that Tesla probably pulled radar prematurely due to supply-chain issues.
 

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That would not be ideal. Is that currently an issue with the Teslas? I’m genuinely asking because I haven’t owned a Tesla yet. My current truck is equipped with radar but I haven’t had that issue so far.
Yes, that's the problem.

The visual system can do what any driver can do and look into the distance, through and around the car in ahead. It doesn't get target fixation like a human.

Absolutely impossible.
If you frame by frame the video, the brake lights were visible before the car alerted. It totally could see ahead.

-Crissa
 
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jhogan2424

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You should watch Dr. Karpathy's presentation on Tesla's FSD, explaining why fusing together vision and radar was less successful than vision alone.


This video is why I'm a believer in the vision-only paradigm, although I agree that Tesla probably pulled radar prematurely due to supply-chain issues.
Thanks for the link and I will certainly watch it sometime in the morning but gotta get kids down and call it a night. Lastly though, I would be plenty happy with radar that is not fused with the rest of the system. Just give me an audible tone when there is a traffic pile or dump truck ahead and let me decide if I want to brake or hit that dump truck.
 

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What system allowed the Tesla to hit the broadside 18 wheeler? The news said the car detection system was not able to discern the gray trailer in the hazy sky so I assumed a visual camera system but other news said the sensors were looking at the road and looked under the trailer once it stretched across the road indicating more of a radar looking down at the road. Either way the company may be looking to find a system more accurate. This Tesla video from a couple years ago is clearly radar based and predicted the crash without seeing it. I want this in limited visibilty, not so I can drive faster but so that my CT can see beyond what I can see.
Tesla stopping the car is not clearly derived from radar. Visual cues could be used as the system also looks at vehicles ahead too.

What am I missing that the video is clearly radar based?
 
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jhogan2424

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Tesla stopping the car is not clearly derived from radar. Visual cues could be used as the system also looks at vehicles ahead too.

What am I missing that the video is clearly radar based?
Come on man, no way that was not radar. The date stamp on vid is 2016
 

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Absolutely impossible.
If you frame by frame the video, the brake lights were visible before the car alerted. It totally could see ahead.
Come on man, no way that was not radar. The date stamp on vid is 2016
Tesla has been using visual as their main system for the entire time. Yes, that car had radar, but we can't say what told it to stop.

-Crissa
 

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Come on man, no way that was not radar. The date stamp on vid is 2016
Visual system was in parallel. I don’t know which the car used first. The current and future systems would perform similar and stop in time. Hopefully not too quickly for the car behind,

what I would like to know from Tesla, does it allow longer stopping distance if the issue is farther down the road to allow a greater chance for drivers behind to stop.

I wish I could read the proprietary data. I don’t think they would let me.
 

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That helped me understand what they are up to. In essence he said that the radar is very good at measuring range, velocity and acceleration but that the cameras are just as good. He also said the the algorithms that turn the radar data into tracks are not so good and loose lock fairly frequently and that this is something they could fix but if the radar doesn't really allow them to do anything better than they think they can do with the camera why waste resources on fixing the tracker.

He also mention wide vertical beamwidth problems which mean that the radar cant separate car from an overpass. I'd say they picked a pretty poor radar for this appliction! And yes, I have had my car scream bloody murder when there isn't another car in sight. He again said that this is fixible (it only takes more vertical aperture) but again not worth doing as they don't think they need a second sensor. Seems they have thrown everything into neural nets and let fusion, autonomous integrity monitoring .... slide.

I shall, nonetheless, miss radar. I have been excited by it since I first set foot in one (SCR 584 - I had a complete set of the TM and the dipole feed from one as a kid) and worked as a radar engineer for a few years at the outset of my career. That's why I laugh at some of the assertions made here. Please don't take them seriously. I'm sure I'd be wowed by the capabilities of a modern radar. I'll bet they haven't lost the ability to resolve in range 0 doppler though. In fact I'll bet the ambiguity functions are much closer to the ideal "thumback" that we strove for those 50 yrs ago.
 

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No concerns at all. A human may drive faster than the fog should allow but FSD is smarter than those people and will drive at a speed it can safely react to.
 

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What @Crissa has said from the beginning of this thread and in several comments is true. The patent was granted for the purposes of monitoring children primarily but, as a result, is available to monitor all occupants and, supposedly, possible assailants. It wouldn’t work beyond a meter or two outside the vehicle.

Regarding the large number of comments in support of radar the sad reality is that when you have multiple sensors of differing types you are going to have to decide how to listen to them. @Crissa mentions the phantom braking that Tesla’s have been having courtesy of their radar sensors. In fact, it is probably better, in the long run, and when using an ML-based system, to use just one sensor type.
 

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Of course not, but pulling over onto the narrow shoulder waiting on better conditions creates another hazard. And other people’s speed and driving habits can not be controlled by me. I do not want to drive in the fog and limit that as much as practical but sometimes it is necessary. I’m just saying it seems a radar sensor is a valuable asset in poor visibility and many other conditions where cameras probably will not work. For example when a car in front of you suddenly slams on brakes due to a traffic pileup, radar would almost certainly see through the car in front of you and begin slowing your vehicle before the car in front of you ever started braking. It is impossible for a vision camera to do that no matter how advanced the software.
your comparison isn't valid as FSD will keep a safe distance from that car and react faster than you ever could. Radar isn't needed. The majority of accidents are caused by human error - FSD doesn't have that weakness.
 
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