Battery Swapping - standards

[Tinker71]

I recently bought NIO on the dip, mostly because the momentum with the battery swaps in Asia. While Tesla obviously thought hard about battery swaps and went the other way, it was a USA driven mindset. I think they made the right decision. I don't really see vehicle battery swaps happening in the USA, but Europe and Asia are another story. Nio Swap station Utube

The next 20 years is going to be insane for battery evolution. I have often rambled about potentially upgrading the structural pack in the CT2. If the energy density doubles and cost halves in 12 years it might be worth it. Who knows, a swappable pack might even be an option. The structural pack is not really magic and really all EV manufacturers are doing it to some extent.

I think the real potential for swappable batteries in the USA is trailers and RVs. If there was a standard, a low profile robot might be able to swap them in parking lot.

1.) You might not use these daily, but when you do you travel larger distances.
2.) You could potentially buy your RV/trailer without a battery and just rent the battery saving a lot of money. (you would tow to the station a short distance without a battery)
3.) This could help with the lack of trailer ready charging stations/parking
4.) The rental battery fleet could be upgraded without the upgrading the vehicle.
5.) Stations could manage off peak charging and grid back up better.
6.) Better recycling.


eUTV, motorcycles, scooters and ebikes are a no brainer. Maybe you drop in 2 standard batteries. Scooter battery swap

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[Sirfun]

I thought battery swaps was a good idea, when looking at time to charge a battery. But when you think about the price to store, charge, and change out batteries vs. you plug in your battery. It doesn't make cents.
I'm not saying Nio is a bad investment, just that battery swapping doesn't sound nearly as good when you think about how much more it would cost.

 

[John K]

Camelbacks make sense, to me, for the long haul trucking industry. Does not make sense with personal vehicles.

 

[Crissa]

It might work out for trailers, but the most battery and range stress is really when you put in a used battery you're not personally cycled. That first few cycles, that first cold night... you don't know how it'll respond.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

It would be pretty cool if you could plug slide a range extending battery into the bed for long trips or when towing. Add an extra 40 kWh for the road.

Or maybe something that drops into the under-vault storage.

Don’t think I’d want to have the main battery removable.

 

[Tinker71]

It would be pretty cool if you could plug slide a range extending battery into the bed for long trips or when towing. Add an extra 40 kWh for the road.

Or maybe something that drops into the under-vault storage.

Don’t think I’d want to have the main battery removable.

I think you are on to something. Matching voltages would be a problem, but you could just power your charger through the aux battery while on the move. You could even stack a couple rental batteries in parallel.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

Battery longevity is the issue. With early Teslas getting 300,000 miles on a battery, and current/next generation batteries to surely get more, what would be the motivation for battery swaps? These batteries will be lasting probably 500,00 miles and up, which is probably at least 20 years. They will also charge faster, both as a result of tabless cell design, cell chemistry, and increased charger power. Given the added complexity of the chasis to support a swapping architecture it is hard to see it as viable in even a year.

 

[firsttruck]

Battery longevity is the issue. With early Teslas getting 300,000 miles on a battery, and current/next generation batteries to surely get more, what would be the motivation for battery swaps? These batteries will be lasting probably 500,00 miles and up, which is probably at least 20 years. They will also charge faster, both as a result of tabless cell design, cell chemistry, and increased charger power. Given the added complexity of the chasis to support a swapping architecture it is hard to see it as viable in even a year.

Yup, the choice is battery swap vs structural battery.

Battery swap
1. means heavier vehicle & carrying battery as a load ( sack of potatoes).

2. Larger battery because vehicle is heavier.

3. Must have higher battery inventory. Need extra batteries at stations.
Bad in environment where there are not enough batteries.

Structural battery.
1. means lighter vehicle & part of battery weigh is double duty as container & structure (offsets some of the battery weight / load. Not just sack of potatoes).

2. Smaller battery because vehicle isl lighter.

3. Fewer batteries needed. Good in environment where there are not enough batteries.

 

[Tinker71]

Yup, the choice is battery swap vs structural battery.

Battery swap
1. means heavier vehicle & carrying battery as a load ( sack of potatoes).

2. Larger battery because vehicle is heavier.

3. Must have higher battery inventory. Need extra batteries at stations.
Bad in environment where there are not enough batteries.

Structural battery.
1. means lighter vehicle & part of battery weigh is double duty as container & structure (offsets some of the battery weight / load. Not just sack of potatoes).

2. Smaller battery because vehicle is lighter.

3. Fewer batteries needed. Good in environment where there are not enough batteries.

There is no reason a swappable battery can't be structural. It might be a little heavier as you would probably want to keep the fasteners down to 6 or so. I look at like a flat beam with flanges at the perimeter, or maybe the bottom flange of the beam with the batteries as the web. The trick would be connecting the batteries to the upper flange with a couple mechanical fasteners.

A swappable battery upgrade to the CT would require massive improvements in energy density before it even starts to make sense. I actually think it is a long shot.

 

[Ogre]

A swappable battery upgrade to the CT would require massive improvements in energy density before it even starts to make sense. I actually think it is a long shot.

By the time batteries improve so much this makes sense for the CT, they will also be good enough that fast charging will be just as fast as swapping the battery.

 

[Tinker71]

By the time batteries improve so much this makes sense for the CT, they will also be good enough that fast charging will be just as fast as swapping the battery.

Exactly, but the same principle applies. Install a more energy dense pack in the void but without provision for quick change, so it can still be light and structural.

 

[Ogre]

Exactly, but the same principle applies. Install a more energy dense pack in the void but without provision for quick change, so it can still be light and structural.

If you can increase weight and decrease charge time, I think that would be a fair trade.

I suspect they are decreasing weight and charge time though. Or at least charge speed increases don’t seem to come at the cost of weight.

Charge rates are likely to be one of the Cybertrucks big advantages. I’m sure the reviewers will overlook it, but for these huge packs, it’ll be a big difference.

 

[Cybertruckee]

I recall Tesla's mention of battery swap in it's early stage of semis development to address it's long range and re-charging issues. They even have a price of $30 to $50 per and turn-around of less than 10 minutes.

Of course, there's no mention of it lately.

 

[Tinker71]

If you can increase weight and decrease charge time, I think that would be a fair trade.

I suspect they are decreasing weight and charge time though. Or at least charge speed increases don’t seem to come at the cost of weight.

Charge rates are likely to be one of the Cybertrucks big advantages. I’m sure the reviewers will overlook it, but for these huge packs, it’ll be a big difference.

Yeah my post made no sense. The without should have been with. We are on the same page. Charge rates and energy density will likely improve together which further enforces fixed battery packs on the vehicle.

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