Cybertruck Ancillary Power ?

[austerberto]

Is there any information regarding how much stored battery will be available with cybertruck and how that system will integrate/interface with the main battery storage? Will there be dedicated cells. Will ancillary power also regenerate with regenerative braking? Etc.

Thank you.

Sponsored

 

[austerberto]

Specifically, how much ancillary battery storage will there be and how does it recharge?

 

[CyberGus]

To date, Teslas have only 1 HV battery pack. There is also a 12v-ish battery for accessories, but it's charged from the main pack.

So, I would expect a single, very large HV pack that powers everything, including any 120v/240v aux output. Regen goes back into the main pack.

Note that even the smallest estimated CT pack will be about 5x the capacity of a Powerwall, so there's a tremendous opportunity for V2H/V2G.

The pack will need to be at least 100kWh, possibly up to 200kWh!

 

[BillyGee]

Just reverse engineering from the model X numbers, which is the closest in terms of weight and size.

Model X reference consumption: 360 wh/Mile

Assuming they get 500 miles of range as promised you can just multiply it out.

340wh/Mile • 500 miles = 180,000 Wh,

Or 180 kWh, which is 80 kWh more than the current model X battery pack. Considering that's probably lower reference consumption than the cyber truck will have, it's safe to assume the battery will likely be even larger.

For more fun, the power wall 2.0 holds about 13.5 kWh of juice, so assuming the inverter is as efficient as Tesla usually builds them it's basically 13.3 power walls in your truck. The average American house uses ~10kWh a day, so it could provide 2 weeks of backup power if you run it dead from full, which you won't. Teslas batteries perform best between 20% and 80%, which is still a ton of power, over a week's worth.

Any way you cut it, it's going to be a tank, even with 4680s.

Hope that answers some questions for you, I always love an excuse to do some back of the envelope math.

 

[JBee]

Given that a lot of battery cycling degradation is from high rates of charging and discharging, and that household peak consumption rates are a tenth of driving a CT, your battery could last twice as long whilst operating in V2X mode. Technically you could go shopping and charge at a Supercharger and bring the energy back to power your "off-grid" house.

 

[cvalue13]

Having personally lived through the debacle that is the Ford “Home Integration System,” I find this topic to be a jugular vein of the competition in the hands of Tesla.

It’s no secret that Tesla’s off-vehicle equipment is to date wildly more sophisticated than traditional snot 3rd party hardware providers. And the Tesla solar/powerwall ecosystem sets a stage not matched - or even entered - by the traditionals.

If upon the release of the CT they have a V2H solution that (1) works, (2) is not vehicle (or even better, manufacturer) specific, and (3) somehow avoids all but the most fundamental of necessary home upgrades (e.g., a utility service expansion) …. it would be game-changing

Meanwhile, Ford’s HIS too often requires significant home service alterations beyond the cost of the equipment (my quote was 2X baseline cost), is as far as anyone knows vehicle specific (who wants that commitment), and - worst of all - managed through SunRun ( the worst of the worst)

A few companies are right around the corner with competing V2H systems, agnostic to vehicle, etc. - but unclear to me if agnostic even to Teslas.

 

[JBee]

Having personally lived through the debacle that is the Ford “Home Integration System,” I find this topic to be a jugular vein of the competition in the hands of Tesla.

It’s no secret that Tesla’s off-vehicle equipment is to date wildly more sophisticated than traditional snot 3rd party hardware providers. And the Tesla solar/powerwall ecosystem sets a stage not matched - or even entered - by the traditionals.

If upon the release of the CT they have a V2H solution that (1) works, (2) is not vehicle (or even better, manufacturer) specific, and (3) somehow avoids all but the most fundamental of necessary home upgrades (e.g., a utility service expansion) …. it would be game-changing

Meanwhile, Ford’s HIS too often requires significant home service alterations beyond the cost of the equipment (my quote was 2X baseline cost), is as far as anyone knows vehicle specific (who wants that commitment), and - worst of all - managed through SunRun ( the worst of the worst)

A few companies are right around the corner with competing V2H systems, agnostic to vehicle, etc. - but unclear to me if agnostic even to Teslas.

V2H house is fairly simple if you want it to be. The simplest version would be to install a manual generator changeover switch on your main switch board. Switch can be had for under $100. Automatic switches are also available. You just use the Lightning 120/240V outlets instead of a generator.

The reason why Ford etc charge more is that they offer a whole series of integration options that aren't included in the switch like power line detection and automatic switchover, load and charge status etc. But you don't need all of them to operate the Lightning as a house backup generator.

 

[cvalue13]

The reason why Ford etc charge more is that they offer a whole series of integration options that aren't included in the switch like power line detection and automatic switchover, load and charge status etc.

Absolutely - and those advertised “integration” features are valuable and worth-while, as well as some (so far) under-advertised features that the system is capable of especially when paired with solar (e.g., micro-grid).

Such a system would be worth the headline sticker price, especially for those of us with solar, more for us with no stand-alone battery.

But you don't need all of them to operate the Lightning as a house backup generator.

It’s pretty simple, but unfortunately not *quite* so simple - or cheap.

Namely, since Ford designed the 30A/220 plug with power tools in mind, it has a bonded neutral which if directly feeding a house creates a ground loop. The work-around involves special transfer switches with a floating neutral (for those of us uncomfortable with a dead man’s cable or other such non-code work-arounds).

A few other gymnastics are raised depending on the home’s existing wiring, etc., but for the most part, yes, a genny plug is what I plan to use instead as a poor-man’s “HIS”

 

[JBee]

Absolutely - and those advertised “integration” features are valuable and worth-while, as well as some (so far) under-advertised features that the system is capable of especially when paired with solar (e.g., micro-grid).

Such a system would be worth the headline sticker price, especially for those of us with solar, more for us with no stand-alone battery.



It’s pretty simple, but unfortunately not *quite* so simple - or cheap.

Namely, since Ford designed the 30A/220 plug with power tools in mind, it has a bonded neutral which if directly feeding a house creates a ground loop. The work-around involves special transfer switches with a floating neutral (for those of us uncomfortable with a dead man’s cable or other such non-code work-arounds).

A few other gymnastics are raised depending on the home’s existing wiring, etc., but for the most part, yes, a genny plug is what I plan to use instead as a poor-man’s “HIS”

Ground loop is an issue if there is a circuit that can detect and trip because of it, but otherwise a changeover switch that switches all the circuits should still work. The main thing is not to have any circuit connected to the Lightning and the grid at the same time. That's both dangerous and costly, because the lightning would be producing current out of phase with the grid as it is unsynchronized.

I don't have that problem because I am intentionally off grid and have been for years (decades?).

 

[cvalue13]

Ground loop is an issue if there is a circuit that can detect and trip because of it,

the truck is what “trips.” Nothin’ doin’ apparently

Admittedly I’m not an electrician, and not super agile with the details - but another forum has pages of threads on this, and consensus (of electricians) who have done it to both failure and success seems to be it’s not so straightforward

in any event, those kinks ironed out, a genny outlet is what most are doing to power their homes with the Lightning

sort of surprised I don’t see more chatter/interest on this V2H capability from the CT hopefuls

 

[JBee]

the truck is what “trips.” Nothin’ doin’ apparently

Admittedly I’m not an electrician, and not super agile with the details - but another forum has pages of threads on this, and consensus (of electricians) who have done it to both failure and success seems to be it’s not so straightforward

in any event, those kinks ironed out, a genny outlet is what most are doing to power their homes with the Lightning

sort of surprised I don’t see more chatter/interest on this V2H capability from the CT hopefuls

Been through a couple of conversations about V2X on here a while back. What is really like to see is Tesla really go to town and use their embedded EV battery capacity to buffer the grid. I've done a preliminary study on the effects of using CT with V2X as a storage buffer for remote microgrids towns, and it actually works quite well, provided you incentivise people to keep their CTs plugged into the microgrid during the day.

I like the idea of using the "motor speed controllers" as both chargers and inverter (and motor speed controller of course) which would allow the capacity to provide power in and out of the grid at the pack level limits, either single or three phase. Less parts but more power in or out. That together with some pricing incentives using autobidder should keep a lot of parked CTs plugged in, which also allows more RE penetration as it reduces spinning reserve requirements and can buffer intermittent RE generation, even on small independent power grids.

Ultimately with enough battery energy density I expect a lot of consumer loads to go "wireless", in that they can operate with built in batteries instead of being plugged in, especially for intermittent use appliances. A bit like power tools now. It would be nice to have a dedicated multi-purpose built in charger in the CT for work and play.

 

[fhteagle]

No OEM installed / approved way to get power back out is a huge negative in Tesla's current offerings. They even go so far as to say use as a stationary power source voids the warranty (partially at most thanks to Magnuson Moss Act, but still). Someone in the family still ordered a MYLR despite this, though.

Market expectations will be very different for CT. At the very least, useful 240V 30A+ outlets must be standard on even the base truck, anything less would just be an embarrassment. Long term, Tesla really needs to get over Musk's personal bias against V2L/H/G, and their marketing position that you must also buy Tesla powerwalls (no thanks). That's an awful lot of battery storage capacity to leave idle and wasted. Tesla needs to do right by the world and finish V2L/H/G in their charging connector and protocol specs. Letting the car play nicely with 3rd party bidirectional charging stations would be a serious boon to homeowners of all sorts, and to the brand itself.

 

[Lives2TruckAround]

Just reverse engineering from the model X numbers, which is the closest in terms of weight and size.

Model X reference consumption: 360 wh/Mile

Assuming they get 500 miles of range as promised you can just multiply it out.

340wh/Mile • 500 miles = 180,000 Wh,

Or 180 kWh, which is 80 kWh more than the current model X battery pack. Considering that's probably lower reference consumption than the cyber truck will have, it's safe to assume the battery will likely be even larger.

For more fun, the power wall 2.0 holds about 13.5 kWh of juice, so assuming the inverter is as efficient as Tesla usually builds them it's basically 13.3 power walls in your truck. The average American house uses ~10kWh a day, so it could provide 2 weeks of backup power if you run it dead from full, which you won't. Teslas batteries perform best between 20% and 80%, which is still a ton of power, over a week's worth.

Any way you cut it, it's going to be a tank, even with 4680s.

Hope that answers some questions for you, I always love an excuse to do some back of the envelope math.

I apologize being late to the conversation but I just wanted to chime in on this comment. I love this…. My take was that it will have a 400 mile/130kWh battery. Especially for the Quad motor if they come out with it. 500 mile for the tri motor if they come out with that. I’m basing all this off of weight per motors. All theoretical of course cuz I don’t know the true end weight of new motors…. If they were to make new motors. Yea yea I know all of you are gonna chime in with (well you don’t know so… how?)

based off of model X stuff and possibilities for new motors based off of what we’ve been shown about the semi trucks. Again… all theoretical.

 

[CyberGus]

Due to the winter storms, I've just spent 4+ days without power. I really could have used a 180kWh battery pack.

Even if there is no official V2X connection from the CyberTruck, I will likely install a cutover switch of some kind to leverage the bed outlets into high-priority household circuits. Like, the TV

 

[Crissa]

Due to the winter storms, I've just spent 4+ days without power. I really could have used a 180kWh battery pack.

Even if there is no official V2X connection from the CyberTruck, I will likely install a cutover switch of some kind to leverage the bed outlets into high-priority household circuits. Like, the TV

Same. Twice in two weeks.

-Crissa

Sponsored