Cybertruck efficiency vs F150 Lightning efficiency

[cvalue13]

Cybertruck specs make it more than JUST "full-size 1/2 ton truck".
Cybertruck overlaps some specs of payload & towing of some lower trims/engine Ford F-250s, Chevy/GMC/RAM 2500s.

Also some mid-size pickup truck buyers who limited themselves to mid-size ICE only to save fuel might move up to Cybertryck because they can get large savings on fuel and get more capacity.

So the market for Cybertruck is more than just "full-size 1/2 ton truck".

There is no reason to exclude Cybertruck from fleets. We already know of people with intentions to buy more than 5 (some as many as 50) for fleet (not scalping) and that is just early adopters. Once Cybertruck is out there there will be more fleet orders.

chill.

i was agreeing with your point. 250K 1/2 ton trucks in retail is a sh*t ton.

and even emphasizing that your point wasn't strong enough

if CT manages to sell 250K/yr, it will be selling in the top 3ish of full sized (non-HD) truck sales on a unit basis

and to the extent it doesn't eat into 250/350 market or fleet market but still manages 250K/yr, it may be in the top 2 of retail 1/2 ton sales.

PS: i've long said the CT is more accurately considered a 3/4 ton truck, not a 1/2 ton truck, but people's heads explode when that discussion is had

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[cvalue13]

another wander on a different thread, relevant to this one

No, but not so long ago there were "real" trucks with 16 gallon tanks and carbureted V8s that drank like sailors if you attempted to tow at 75mph.

And tomorrow, if you wanted, you could put a total of 12.8 gallons of fuel in an ICE F150 tank and have the exact same max range in that ICE F150 as there is in a fully charged Lightning.

that 16mpg towing [for a 2023 ICE F150]? is measured as of and under certain speeds and conditions. specifically, a relatively low speed (averaging at or less than 55mph), and warm temperatures, etc., etc., etc.

take that ICE F150 up to a sustained 75mph in 30 degree temps, and you'll be towing in the 10mpg range. do it with underinflated tires, lower. do it in a headwind, even lower. do it in dry air, even lower. do it at sea level, even lower. do it with a trailer that has worse aerodynamics than the one used in the test, even lower.

ICE, or BEV

WHO HERE TOWS WITH A DIESEL TRUCK AND WANTS TO REPORT THEIR RANGE HIT IF TOWING AN RV AT 75MPH IN 30 DEGREE TEMPS?1?! @SolarWizard ?

but as for "MISTAKEN" buyers of the Lighting, how about I just cite the first two articles I find that understand fuel economy/range and towing, available in 2021 to an aspiring buyer with only a moment on googling:

CAR and DRIVER, published MAY 19, 2021

We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
Ford promises EPA ratings of 230 and 300 miles, but towing and hauling near the claimed 10,000-pound maximum is going to seriously cut into those figures.

Ford is claiming that the range figures for its electric pickup will come in at 230 miles and 300 miles, depending on whether the standard-range (which we estimate can hold 115.0 kWh) or extended-range battery pack (150.0 kWh, same caveat) is beneath the bed. Those are EPA predictions, specifically EPA combined figures, in lightly loaded conditions...

In our highway range testing, which we conduct at a steady 75 mph, we typically see a range number that's about 20 percent below the EPA figure. Using that same bogey, which is probably generous in the case of a full-size pickup, would put the Lightning in the 180-to-240-mile zone for what you might achieve on a road trip...

Applying these results to the F-150 means that towing a modest trailer would put the highway range at roughly 100 to 125 miles, depending on the pack. Towing anywhere near the 10,000-pound maximum rating on XLT and Lariat models (with the maximum trailer tow package and extended-range battery) at highway speeds, we believe you'd be hard pressed to exceed double-digit miles. We'd take that bet, in fact.


INSIDE EV'S, published July 25, 2021

Learn The Truth About EV Range And Towing: How Far Can You Go?

There's no way to put a finger on precisely how much range your electric car will travel on a single charge, but you can get a pretty close idea. The EPA's estimated range is an excellent starting point, though we've proven time and time again that it's not necessarily accurate based on each individual's driving habits, travel routes, etc. The specific EV you own also plays a role in how accurate the EPA estimate tends to be, which is covered in detail in the video.

You can consult multiple sources for actual real-world range tests. At InsideEVs, we drive every EV at a constant 70 mph until the battery dies. This lets you compare every electric car we've tested, and also see how our tests compare to EPA estimates. Still, factors such as weather – especially temperature and wind – as well as terrain, uphill and downhill travel, traffic, regenerative braking, and many other factors will impact your actual range.

With all of that said, there's arguably nothing that may impact your EV's range as much as towing. While towing also affects the range and fuel economy of gas-powered vehicles, owners don't seem to pay nearly as much attention. When their vehicle gets low on gas, they simply fill up and proceed. With EVs, however, range is something many people are constantly aware of, and this is especially true if they're pulling a heavy load.

YouTube influencer Two Bit da Vinci is aware that towing in an EV can be complicated, and estimating how much range to expect isn't easy. For this reason, he decided to build a model to help people understand the concepts and get an idea of range loss while towing.




that video above, watch it through, but the towing discussion begins at 10 min mark.

it dives into the details of range reduction generally, as well as towing specifically, which I for brevity gloss over with my "13 gal tank" equivocation. and the reason this gloss is useful, is that it compares a standard: total expected range vs % of range reduced.

put differently:

• the Lightning in optimal EPA conditions (speed, temp, etc.) has a max range of 320mi
• the ICE F150 with 25mpg EPA rating, to travel that same 320 miles, requires 12.8 gallons of fuel

So, the Lightning's 320mi max range is equivalent to an ICE F150 with only 12.8 gallons of fuel in the tank, if both are at identical optimal EPA conditions

Drag increases by V2, so increasing from the EPA average of 48mph testing conditions to, e.g., 75mph results in an expected decrease of nearly 3.5X as much drag, on both vehicles, with a resulting plummet in range on both vehicles.

Etc., etc., etc.

 

[Sirfun]

250K/year Cybertrucks is not niche. Cybertruck would be definitely be high volume.

In-fact, 250K/year would put Cybertruck in top 5 (5th place) of U.S. full-size pickups by model.

Beating GMC Sierra 1500/2500, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan and even Toyota's higher volume mid-size Toyota Tacoma.

U.S. Full-size Truck Sales: Full-year 2022
Sales Model
653,957 Ford F-Series
523,249 Chevrolet Silverado
468,344 Ram Trucks
241,522 GMC Sierra
104,246 Toyota Tundra

237,323 Toyota Tacoma (mid-size)


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15 Best Selling Trucks Of 2022
Jan 05, 2023
Jeff Perez By: Jeff Perez
https://www.motor1.com/features/629701/best-selling-trucks-2022/

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The other part of that equation is the sales numbers on ICE trucks will go down as the market gets diluted by more and more manufacturers cannibalizing themselves with Electric truck choices. But maybe they'll be included in those numbers.
Hey here's a funny one. Remember when Ford came out with Mach E sales, and the media jumped at the chance to say Tesla was losing market share? What will they say when the Cybertruck starts taking market share away from existing trucks?

 

[HaulingAss]

WTH are you even talking about? Tesla didn't hint the Cybertruck is going to be a low-volume niche vehicle, in fact Elon guestimated it would sell in volumes of 250,000 to 500,000 in North America.

No way could they reach those volumes with a niche, expensive vehicle. In other words, Tesla has said exactly the opposite of what you claim!

 

[HaulingAss]

I like the massive Frunk on the F150 lightning good for packing extra stuff but does it come as an increased operating cost? ie it takes more kWh's to push all that air around in the front vs the relative small size of the cyber truck front and longer times to charge. Just wondering what are the battery pack sizes of the F150 lightning vs the cyber truck?

Yes, the boxy front end of the F-150 comes at a massive cost of needing more batteries to achieve the same highway cruising range. And those batteries weigh more which increases rolling resistance further, which means even more batteries are needed to overcome the additional rolling resistance. All those batteries push up the price of the vehicle and lower the off-road performance and wear your tires out a bit sooner. Aero matters more than most people imagine! It's not just a simple hit of 10% or whatever, it's a compounding hit in terms of cost, range, performance at higher speeds, noise, etc.

But that might not be the worst of it. I have a 2010 F-150 4x4 and the visibility over the nose of the truck is so atrocious it's dangerous. This is true whether in your driveway with kids playing around, at the supermarket or off-road scoring some firewood. It makes off-roading that much more difficult when you can't see the ditch or the cliff edge right in front of your truck. I need to get out and look around all the time, and I'm 6 foot-four inches tall, it must be far worse for people shorter than myself.

Big trucks run over small adults and children on a regular basis when the driver cannot see in front of them. This happens all the time, often with disastrous results. The Cybertruck will be best in class in terms of forward visibility and the difference will not be small, it will be gigantic and meaningful in real world use.

What I find unacceptable is that the hoods of modern trucks are made broader and wider than necessary to contain their engines because designers think it makes the truck look like it has a bigger engine and buyers think it makes them look more badass than last year's model. So, hoods keep rising, ground clearance keeps getting increased while roll-over accidents go through the roof. The Cybertruck looks more badass than all of them and without the serious safety, efficiency and roll-over risks and more range out of a smaller, lighter and more affordable battery.

 

[Sirfun]

Yes, the boxy front end of the F-150 comes at a massive cost of needing more batteries to achieve the same highway cruising range. And those batteries weigh more which increases rolling resistance further, which means even more batteries are needed to overcome the additional rolling resistance. All those batteries push up the price of the vehicle and lower the off-road performance and wear your tires out a bit sooner. Aero matters more than most people imagine! It's not just a simple hit of 10% or whatever, it's a compounding hit in terms of cost, range, performance at higher speeds, noise, etc.

But that might not be the worst of it. I have a 2010 F-150 4x4 and the visibility over the nose of the truck is so atrocious it's dangerous. This is true whether in your driveway with kids playing around, at the supermarket or off-road scoring some firewood. It makes off-roading that much more difficult when you can't see the ditch or the cliff edge right in front of your truck. I need to get out and look around all the time, and I'm 6 foot-four inches tall, it must be far worse for people shorter than myself.

Big trucks run over small adults and children on a regular basis when the driver cannot see in front of them. This happens all the time, often with disastrous results. The Cybertruck will be best in class in terms of forward visibility and the difference will not be small, it will be gigantic and meaningful in real world use.

What I find unacceptable is that the hoods of modern trucks are made broader and wider than necessary to contain their engines because designers think it makes the truck look like it has a bigger engine and buyers think it makes them look more badass than last year's model. So, hoods keep rising, ground clearance keeps getting increased while roll-over accidents go through the roof. The Cybertruck looks more badass than all of them and without the serious safety, efficiency and roll-over risks and more range out of a smaller, lighter and more affordable battery.

I agree 100%. I'd just like to add that it's not just trucks.

 

[Greshnab]

The other part of that equation is the sales numbers on ICE trucks will go down as the market gets diluted by more and more manufacturers cannibalizing themselves with Electric truck choices. But maybe they'll be included in those numbers.
Hey here's a funny one. Remember when Ford came out with Mach E sales, and the media jumped at the chance to say Tesla was losing market share? What will they say when the Cybertruck starts taking market share away from existing trucks?

when the cybertruck starts taking market share away from existing trucks the sound of crickets from mainstream press will be deafening.

 

[Ogre]

I don’t know where you got the misinformation that the aerodynamics of the lightning and cyber truck are similar. You’re off by a factor of two check it out.

I think you mistyped in your initial post.. what you typed was.. there’s no doubt that the CT has ~identical aerodynamics to the ICE F150

Seriously doubt this will be the case. If nothing else, it is highly likely the surface area of the Cybertruck is much less than that of the 150. But odds are it’ll be more than that. Just the vault shape should get the Cybertruck a bit of an edge.

I don’t think the difference will be anything like 50% less drag, but strong chance there will be 20% less. Strong chance the next gen F150 will close that gap at least a bit.

 

[Ogre]

”Going to be tough to make it affordable”

Does not mean

“Base price will be double”.

 

[jerhenderson]

I like the massive Frunk on the F150 lightning good for packing extra stuff but does it come as an increased operating cost? ie it takes more kWh's to push all that air around in the front vs the relative small size of the cyber truck front and longer times to charge. Just wondering what are the battery pack sizes of the F150 lightning vs the cyber truck?

no one here knows, so it's a useless question.

 

[jerhenderson]

The other part of that equation is the sales numbers on ICE trucks will go down as the market gets diluted by more and more manufacturers cannibalizing themselves with Electric truck choices. But maybe they'll be included in those numbers.
Hey here's a funny one. Remember when Ford came out with Mach E sales, and the media jumped at the chance to say Tesla was losing market share? What will they say when the Cybertruck starts taking market share away from existing trucks?

they won't. they'll say there's a demand problem, or an inventory problem, or a margin problem, ... the usual crap.

 

[roadrunner32]

Yes, the boxy front end of the F-150 comes at a massive cost of needing more batteries to achieve the same highway cruising range. And those batteries weigh more which increases rolling resistance further, which means even more batteries are needed to overcome the additional rolling resistance. All those batteries push up the price of the vehicle and lower the off-road performance and wear your tires out a bit sooner. Aero matters more than most people imagine! It's not just a simple hit of 10% or whatever, it's a compounding hit in terms of cost, range, performance at higher speeds, noise, etc.

But that might not be the worst of it. I have a 2010 F-150 4x4 and the visibility over the nose of the truck is so atrocious it's dangerous. This is true whether in your driveway with kids playing around, at the supermarket or off-road scoring some firewood. It makes off-roading that much more difficult when you can't see the ditch or the cliff edge right in front of your truck. I need to get out and look around all the time, and I'm 6 foot-four inches tall, it must be far worse for people shorter than myself.

Big trucks run over small adults and children on a regular basis when the driver cannot see in front of them. This happens all the time, often with disastrous results. The Cybertruck will be best in class in terms of forward visibility and the difference will not be small, it will be gigantic and meaningful in real world use.

What I find unacceptable is that the hoods of modern trucks are made broader and wider than necessary to contain their engines because designers think it makes the truck look like it has a bigger engine and buyers think it makes them look more badass than last year's model. So, hoods keep rising, ground clearance keeps getting increased while roll-over accidents go through the roof. The Cybertruck looks more badass than all of them and without the serious safety, efficiency and roll-over risks and more range out of a smaller, lighter and more affordable battery.

Yes, the boxy front end of the F-150 comes at a massive cost of needing more batteries to achieve the same highway cruising range. And those batteries weigh more which increases rolling resistance further, which means even more batteries are needed to overcome the additional rolling resistance. All those batteries push up the price of the vehicle and lower the off-road performance and wear your tires out a bit sooner. Aero matters more than most people imagine! It's not just a simple hit of 10% or whatever, it's a compounding hit in terms of cost, range, performance at higher speeds, noise, etc.

But that might not be the worst of it. I have a 2010 F-150 4x4 and the visibility over the nose of the truck is so atrocious it's dangerous. This is true whether in your driveway with kids playing around, at the supermarket or off-road scoring some firewood. It makes off-roading that much more difficult when you can't see the ditch or the cliff edge right in front of your truck. I need to get out and look around all the time, and I'm 6 foot-four inches tall, it must be far worse for people shorter than myself.

Big trucks run over small adults and children on a regular basis when the driver cannot see in front of them. This happens all the time, often with disastrous results. The Cybertruck will be best in class in terms of forward visibility and the difference will not be small, it will be gigantic and meaningful in real world use.

What I find unacceptable is that the hoods of modern trucks are made broader and wider than necessary to contain their engines because designers think it makes the truck look like it has a bigger engine and buyers think it makes them look more badass than last year's model. So, hoods keep rising, ground clearance keeps getting increased while roll-over accidents go through the roof. The Cybertruck looks more badass than all of them and without the serious safety, efficiency and roll-over risks and more range out of a smaller, lighter and more affordable battery.

Hauling Ass, I like what you said about the dangers of the boxy front end especially when they are "lifted". Adding to the efficiency aspect of the Tesla design, (all teslas), I offer the the following: The design of the HVAC heat pump is just amazing with attention to saving energy. Tesla could have used simple resistive heating and called it a day, but that would have decreased the range by 38 miles which would require a larger battery pack . This is according to WeberAuto's detailed analysis of Tesla's entire HVAC system. To see how the entire system works including the supermanifold and the Octo valve check out this video.

 

[roadrunner32]

WTH are you even talking about? Tesla didn't hint the Cybertruck is going to be a low-volume niche vehicle, in fact Elon guestimated it would sell in volumes of 250,000 to 500,000 in North America.

No way could they reach those volumes with a niche, expensive vehicle. In other words, Tesla has said exactly the opposite of what you claim!

Agreed, Remember all of what was said at the CT release, how the manufacturing cost of the CT will be much less, because of no paint shop, much fewer stamping presses, welds etc. on and on. And now we have the Giga Press, and 48 volt wiring.

 

[Solarrrs]

these stats are not for the 1/2 ton class. They’re for all non-HD tonnage variants (eg F150+F250+F350, or the Ram 1500, 2500, and 3500 etc)

The cyber truck is clearly more than a half ton pick up


and across both retail and fleet

if one takes the view that the CT is squarely a 1/2 ton truck, and focused on retail only, it would mean 250,000 a year would be a top 3 in terms of 1/2 ton retail specifically

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