carpedatum

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Regarding to how they’ll deal with the whole Gigapress issue, I’d be willing to bet they stamp the bodies in Texas and ship them to Fremont.
I'll take that bet! I expect they'll come up with some scrappy short-term substitute for the underbody castings that would have come off on an 8-ton gigapress, probably (as others have suggested) with more pieces. Certainly would take more time to assemble, and weigh a bit more, but could still be sufficiently production-representative to support testing and, perhaps, even, some early sales to employees.

It makes more sense to me that they'd do that, and figure out how to produce the exoskeleton at scale, at Fremont. They won't be distracted there by the problems of setting up an entirely new factory, and will have their most experienced folks (many of whom I'm sure are chomping at the bit for the opportunity) nearby to contribute. They have essentially the same suite of equipment, already operational, in Fremont. They've also got a 4680 pilot line right there.

Whether any of that actually improves the schedule depends on your view of what that was before this news. I would argue that it is a pragmatic approach to schedule compression and risk retirement, and will probably help to align the availability of a detailed, semi-refined production process with the arrival of actual capacity in Austin. It may keep Tesla on track to produce some saleable CTs in 2021, albeit in Fremont.
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Frankenblob

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If they built that prototype then they can or have built others.

Prolly waiting for the 4680's.
 

OCS12

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Do they? It's rumored Tesla spends less on manufacture for each car produced than the established companies.

-Crissa
And Tesla has quality control nightmares. The fans can write it off, but it’s stuff I’d be ashamed of. I’m not trashing Tesla. They are learning. Part of that learning is why they are headhunting folks like me. I make my living by designing systems to make sure the product is perfect when it ships. My employer went from being a laughing stock to being the largest, and most reliable in the industry, and that’s with internal combustion engines, which are a hell of a lot harder to build than a Tesla.
 

OCS12

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I'll take that bet! I expect they'll come up with some scrappy short-term substitute for the underbody castings that would have come off on an 8-ton gigapress, probably (as others have suggested) with more pieces. Certainly would take more time to assemble, and weigh a bit more, but could still be sufficiently production-representative to support testing and, perhaps, even, some early sales to employees.

It makes more sense to me that they'd do that, and figure out how to produce the exoskeleton at scale, at Fremont. They won't be distracted there by the problems of setting up an entirely new factory, and will have their most experienced folks (many of whom I'm sure are chomping at the bit for the opportunity) nearby to contribute. They have essentially the same suite of equipment, already operational, in Fremont. They've also got a 4680 pilot line right there.

Whether any of that actually improves the schedule depends on your view of what that was before this news. I would argue that it is a pragmatic approach to schedule compression and risk retirement, and will probably help to align the availability of a detailed, semi-refined production process with the arrival of actual capacity in Austin. It may keep Tesla on track to produce some saleable CTs in 2021, albeit in Fremont.
I’m game, but it’s silly, so let’s stay friendly. How about a twelve pack of your best local beer versus mine?
 

MEDICALJMP

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I wonder... with Ford making 1 Million+ F150's in a given year, how much bigger is their factory? That number seems astounding, especially given that it is built in the more traditional car manufacturing process that Tesla is claiming to be so inefficient both in time and cost?

Genuine question, if the CT is so much more efficient in its production process, what would be keeping them from hitting those types of numbers? aside from battery availability...
Not a single factory. Two factories according to this article.
https://motorandwheels.com/where-ar...re_F-150_for_the_US_Market_Produced_in_the_US

How large is each?
Claycomo - The 4,700,000-square-foot (440,000 m2) on 1,270 acres (5.1 km2) facility employs approximately 7,000 people.

Dearborn - the complex measures 1.5 miles (2.4 km) wide by 1 mile (1.6 km) long, including 93 buildings with nearly 16 million square feet (1.5 km2) of factory floor space.
 
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Luke42

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Do they? It's rumored Tesla spends less on manufacture for each car produced than the established companies.

-Crissa
Tesla's sales are on par with Mazda.

GM, VW, and Toyota's sales dwarf Tesla's. (Tesla's market cap is an anomaly when viewed from this perspective.)

Tesla is still the innovative underdog that we're all rooting for.

I just because *I* won't buy another old fashioned ICE vehicle doesn't mean the legacies aren't excellent at mass production.

Making an excellent factory and making an excellent product are almost orthogonal challenges.
 

Jhodgesatmb

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Efficiency only fixes so much. There’s simply no way around the fact that some processes are slow. That can be worked around, but it adds to production costs. You mention “traditional car building” as a bad thing. Those guys have it dialed in. Tesla doesn’t. There’s a reason Tesla recruiters keep targeting folks like me. There’s an optimal human/robot mix. The unions love the human side, Elon loves the robot side, but the reality is somewhere in the middle. Tesla is learning, but the big kids have it down to a science.
My father worked for Ford for N years and I grew up in the shadow of Detroit and watched what you call “dialed in” first hand. What the big automakers have dialed in is not innovation or efficiency but the complete lack of it. They tread very slowly, not wanting to upset their market shares, only adding new features when competitors do first. Their fit and finish is better, yes, but they are all cookie cutter variations of each other, no matter which country they were designed or built in. Tesla may target your skills and experience, but that doesn’t mean you would fit in there.
 

GnarlyDudeLive

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If they built that prototype then they can or have built others.

Prolly waiting for the 4680's.
I would think they have had a good 6 months of the prototype line building the 4680's that they would have a fairly decent stash built up by now to support how ever many they would need for the CT for testing already available.
 

LoPro

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They do?

I have yet to see any non-subjective comparisons that Tesla shows up poorly in.

-Crissa
They *had*.

It’s not non-subjective at all but my early 2019 Model 3 had a back side door that stuck out 0.7cm and a rear light which was much rougher around the edges than the other. Easily visible on close inspection. I’ve bought new cars before and have never experienced anything quite as easily caught by eye. I think Sandy Munro has said something similar about Teslas from that Model 3 ramp up period too. He’s been much happier since then though.

I’ve also had to replace (free) the large rear window because of heating wires stopping to work and a bearing in front because of failure after 1 year but that is probably third party durability duds and could have happened (and happens) with others brands too. Haven’t heard of others with the same issues.

That said, this was all noticed after delivery but they fixed it all as swiftly as possible (mobile while I was at work, in 30 minutes, or with a Model X as a loaner) with no questions asked (nothing about “within margins of error” or whether you could *somehow* be to blame which you might hear at other dealers), and none of my friends and neighbours with newer Teslas have mentioned anything of that nature.

While I am sure many of you have seen stories online of what looks like real examples of missing QC, it’s probably of that early ramp up period or earlier, on a small percentage of vehicles, and it’s sad that it’s a lasting lore around Tesla as a car maker. Some online stories were clearly fud but has stuck around the image of the only car brand which is on everybody’s lips. And as Crissa says reviews or comparisons don’t tend to note issues like this other than as a historical note or just to reference the rumours, if at all.

I am no “Elon fanboi”, but have no hesitation ordering more Teslas, and from their reaction to my problems and seeing how they disappear (or are designed away) on newer vehicles I trust them more than any other car brand. I appreciate the cutting edge products and the continuing development of them most of all (huge software updates and later mobile installation of free mudguards and slightly more silent vents from the battery comes to mind in my case) , but they have clearly learnt mass production very fast too.

I accept that the CT represents a new type of car manufacturing with inherent risks during ramp up, but as long as they continue their current after sales service and assuming much of what they have learnt during the Model 3 ramp up still applies, I’ll stay very excited about getting that vehicle too (even an early one but I can dream). No, even more excited.
 
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Crissa

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They *had*.

It’s not non-subjective at all but my ...
That's literally subjective. You are comparing your personal experience.

An objective measure would be for someone to measure a random sample of new cars of multiple brands without the dealers particularly being aware and seeing what their variances were.

We don't know, because no one bothers, whether panel gaps are an issue more widely or that they're just paid attention to more often on Tesla Models than comparible cars.

-Crissa
 

LoPro

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That's literally subjective. You are comparing your personal experience.

An objective measure would be for someone to measure a random sample of new cars of multiple brands without the dealers particularly being aware and seeing what their variances were.

We don't know, because no one bothers, whether panel gaps are an issue more widely or that they're just paid attention to more often on Tesla Models than comparible cars.

-Crissa
Yes, I know what objective means, hence the “warning” that my reply was “not non-subjective” and making it clear it was just my personal experience by using “in my experience” several times, exactly in lieu of any existing objective measure. Except for the vague Sandy Munro reference (in which he specifically talked about early Model 3 panel gaps). A forum is great way to gather other owner’s experience too for comparison and I am genuinely curious about it (although I respect anybody thinks that would be littering this thread which has another primary subject).

Anyway, my car shouldn’t have passed QC at all, but (assuming it was a general problem as the internet would tend to say) it seems better the last 2 years (concerning the euro exports) from my small sample of friends and neighbours, and they did their utmost to fix it quickly.

It would indeed be interesting to see a more objective random comparison across brands to see whether it’s people expecting more from Tesla than others, inspecting them more closely because they’re a “new manufacturer” or maybe because of just that kind of Tesla lore, or what. But when it comes to my issue specifically I wouldn’t have accepted a door sticking out on any car myself because it was so visible walking around.

I would be surprised to experience that in the future after Tesla now has gained more mass production experience, have hired and trained more, across continents and cultures too, and surely has seen the costs of fixing stuff after sales from all their service centers (it follows that I assume that has declined over time too but it would be interesting to know whether that is true).

I am also curious whether new manufacturing technology installed in Austin and the material of the CT could lead to this being less of a potential issue in the future anyway (whether it has been widespread at a time or not).
 
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Crissa

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What I do know is the panel gaps on Fords and Mazdas I looked at (since I have a Mazda, I was interested in it after I had to get mine repaired several times) wouldn't pass the inspections that many reviews of Tesla Model 3s were noting.

-Crissa
 

carpedatum

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I’m game, but it’s silly, so let’s stay friendly. How about a twelve pack of your best local beer versus mine?
Agreed, definitely silly! So yes, you're on - and I'll concede at the first evidence of anything panel, underbody, and/or subframe made in Austin showing up a Fremont-made CT. It will be fun to try to figure that out...
 
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