Old Spice

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Coolness and uniqueness of the Cybertruck = priceless (and that's coming from a current F-150 owners)!
 

Jon Snow

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Hmm .. you seem to have left out information. EVs shine in cost of ownership as well as performance. Run the math again with fuel savings, maintenance savings, and 3 X longer lifespan included .. and the EV comes out on top by an incredible margin. The dual motor and tri motor also btw.
 

CarsBarsMars

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IIRC Tesla said the CT will be a medium duty vehicle classification comparable to an F-250. I know the chart is from early in the process, but I expect by the time the CT ships it will cost more but will still compare very favorably to a comparably equipped ford F-250.
 

mggoulet

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So now, everyone will buy CT in Québec as we pay around $0.06 KWH and we pay $1.20 per liter=$4.54 per US gallon Notice that is in CAD money:
F150=>15,000/18 X $4.54=$3,783.33 VS CT=>15,000X500X$0.06/1000= $450.00 différence= $3,333.33 per year just for fuel VS KWH.
 

Saskateam

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So now, everyone will buy CT in Québec as we pay around $0.06 KWH and we pay $1.20 per liter=$4.54 per US gallon Notice that is in CAD money:
F150=>15,000/18 X $4.54=$3,783.33 VS CT=>15,000X500X$0.06/1000= $450.00 différence= $3,333.33 per year just for fuel VS KWH.
I think you will also get incentives in Quebec when you buy and there is more infrastructure available. A different story here in Saskatchewan where we pay $0.14/kWh and the infrastructure is lacking and the government is not a fan. I will be one of the very few CT owners here. Our EV ownership is less than 100 in the province and maybe less than 50.
 

mggoulet

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You see and now... you will know more about our politics problems: First, all the east coast had developped the westener... 2- the economy of saskatchewan is mostly by potash and petroleum and in Alberta is only with sand petroleum...In Québec, we have lithium, uranium, hydro=electricity, gold diamond, iron, mines with also gas and petroleum + industries in different areas... the perequation was made by
albertains... and our government does not want it as our économy is great... so, in the folfe du St-Laurent we have Old Harry resources of petroleum for 100 years that we do not now exploite...In your province, your government is more with petroleum and will never give you electricity car facility... Québec is providing more than 2/3 for Vermont need also for New-York city... and by the way in Mass... etc... We arrive to the end of the gas powerfull...Opep is trying to increase the price of the liter or the gallon of gas... our answer is with all electric car...Just remember that the reduction for Québec electric car is not over $60,000 and it is for $8,000 so with the on motor it could be on... but by the time we will get it... all government could abolish that subvention.
 

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Still a good investment without incentives. The economics of an EV speak for them selves if you can see and listen. I can get the Tri-Motor for equal to what I am paying for a lesser vehicle, when I calculated in fuel and maintenance costs. Once the longevity of the CT is factored in it is a huge savings over the replacement costs every 5-6 years of the ICE vehicles I drive now.
 

Sirfun

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The original post had TCO for 5 years of $53,000. That was is for a Dual motor, I would imagine single motor would be just a small margin more than a $38,900 model 3 which is roughly $35,000 for 5 years. Even if it's $40,000 for 5 years there aren't to many vehicles that can compare to that. None of them carry 6 adult men with a 100 cubic ft. of cargo space. And that's just over 5 years. The Cybertruck with 5 x15,000= 75,000 miles has a long life still!
 

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I am curious as to how longevity is being touted as a factor? Are there stats on maint. costs for EV's at year 10, year 20? ICE trucks have well know costs statistically to keep running that long. Do we know what the EV's will cost?
 

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Going back to the video at the top of this post, I am really questioning some of the assumptions and calculations:

1. Financing: The purchase price of the F150 in the comparison was just under $50k. So how is the financing higher for the F150 when the price was essentially the same? Is Tesla giving away below-market financing? (I typically pay cash or finance vehicles in much more lower-cost ways than retail car dealer financing, so this is not even a factor for a buyer like me.)

2. The Taxes and Fees for similar value vehicles should be similar (not counting any tax incentives for EV's). Again, why the difference in those comparisons? I would want to see incentives broken out separately. States are starting to ADD taxes for EV's at annual registration to make up for the road taxes not being collected in fuel sales. 17 states so far with fees between $75 to $200 per year. Roads have to get paid for somehow.

3. Depreciation? No justification given in the video. I would argue that in the absence of data on longevity or residual value, this comparison is difficult to make with any credibility. I know that everything I have ever owned with a battery, the batteries lose their usefulness after just a few years of real world usage, no matter what the manufacturer says about battery life cycles. Until that experience is proven wrong, or the manufacturer is going to offer a 10 year warranty, I am skeptical about longevity claims regarding the batteries.

Also, many other things factor into depreciation that have nothing to do with the durability of the vehicle. Technology is advancing at a rapid pace. Style preferences change. Wear and tear on all the cosmetic surfaces and interior. Dirt accumulation, corrosion, and other forces of entropy can be slowed, but never completely halted.

4. Maintenance? Is Tesla giving a 5 year no-maint. warranty? Why would maint. cost be just $200? Even still, does that include tires and brakes? I don't know but I highly doubt Tesla is including free tires. The Edmunds TCO calculator says it includes maint. for things you would still need on an EV like wheel alignment, brakes, headlamps, signal lamps, tires, wiper blades, and brakes.

5. The Wh/mi calculations neglected charging efficiency, so I think he needs to add about 10% to the energy costs. Also, I think extrapolating from 450 Wh/mi for the X to only 500 wh/mi for the CT is a bit underestimating the energy usage.

6. Gas prices and taxes vary considerably across the country, so the comparison would need to take into consideration local fuel pricing and taxes. Electricity also has regional price differences. The video does a good job of spanning the range using CA and TX, but each buyer should be aware of this factor in their own location.

7. The TCO cost did not include the cost of adding a charging circuit and station to your home (or business) which most first time EV owners will need. Debatable exactly how to count this.

Not trying to bash EV's. There are plenty of advantages, but I would want to be more careful about making TCO claims without a bit more accuracy.
 
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Dids

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Can someone explain why it's more expensive to tow with BEV than ICE but cheaper to operate. How can $/hp and $/torque and $/mile be lower but $/tow capacity be higher. Somewhere else I saw some discussion that towing wouldn't be economical due to the increased time of recharging but they ignored the opportunity cost in the calculation and where that break even is.
 

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Can someone explain why it's more expensive to tow with BEV than ICE but cheaper to operate. How can $/hp and $/torque and $/mile be lower but $/tow capacity be higher. Somewhere else I saw some discussion that towing wouldn't be economical due to the increased time of recharging but they ignored the opportunity cost in the calculation and where that break even is.
I don't recall seeing arguments that its more expensive. It would be interesting to compare the total energy costs when towing. The EV's advantage of avoiding the road taxes baked into gas prices would be magnified.

The main issue is range between stopping to recharge, availability of super-charging locations on your desired route, and the amount of time it takes to recharge being added to your trip. An ICE doesn't have those worries.

Adding 500 miles of towing range to an ICE is cheap - for a few hundred extra $ you can buy a truck with the larger gas tank option or throw an aux. fuel tank in the back. Adding comparable range to a BEV is orders of magnitude more expensive.
 

CarsBarsMars

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I don't recall seeing arguments that its more expensive. It would be interesting to compare the total energy costs when towing. The EV's advantage of avoiding the road taxes baked into gas prices would be magnified.

The main issue is range between stopping to recharge, availability of super-charging locations on your desired route, and the amount of time it takes to recharge being added to your trip. An ICE doesn't have those worries.

Adding 500 miles of towing range to an ICE is cheap - for a few hundred extra $ you can buy a truck with the larger gas tank option or throw an aux. fuel tank in the back. Adding comparable range to a BEV is orders of magnitude more expensive.

You're correct on this to an extent. I dont think anyone realistically expects to use a CT for repeated long distance towing, or if they do they're able to tolerate a much higher level of bother than I am.

However if I were to use my CT for local towing...which I do almost every single day...Then I am comparing the cost to refuel my 17 mpg tow tractor (Lexus SUV) with a 300 mile range CT with a solar panel (+15 miles per day supposedly) That is a pretty simple equation, since it costs over $60 to fuel my tractor and about $20 to fill my CT on my local electric cost. (we dont have EV charging rates here or it might be as low as $8 to fill up) At that cost difference, and because I usually tow for about 30-80 miles per day while working, it is much more efficient for me to use the CT for towing and tolerate occasional charging periods where i drive the old tractor.

Also, after perusing the amout of aftermarket charging options, I am certain that a bed mounted or vault mounted surplus battery pack will arrive. And if there is a CyberTrailer....why wouldnt it have it's own battery pack and rooftop solar? Certainly it would be difficult to justify paying an extra $3000 for a typical cargo trailer, but there may be very real advantages for some users. For example I have a trailer which has a small woodshop built into it so I can work on site. Currently I use entirely battery powered tools except for a table saw. A 100' extenstion cord means on some sites I can plug in, and other times I use the engine on my tractor to run the onboard 120v plug for short term table saw use. A large on board battery pack would expand my 120v tool capability.
 
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