Did Elon Confirm 350kW Charging For Cybertruck??

anionic1

Well-known member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Apr 30, 2021
Messages
155
Reaction score
120
Location
Yorba Linda
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Occupation
Estimator
Country flag
On a side note, I have been in meetings with Chargepoint for large EV infrastructure projects in Los Angeles. LA or at least various cities around LA are moving toward up to 30% of new parking stalls having EV capacity. Some break it into EV installed, EV ready and EV capable. Its crazy amounts of power and all the parties involved are trying to figure out what this all pencils out to. LADWP and Edison are saying bring it on because we have plenty of capacity! Which, I kind of find funny because I added solar to my house and put a couple kW back on the grid every peak hour currently (because I don't have the CT yet) and they are making me sign all sorts of agreements because they don't want to pay me .02 cents a kW while they happily up my rate to around .40 cents per kW due to the solar install. Anyway, I am done venting.

Its becoming common now to see an apartment that has 5000 amps of power for the apartment building and another 5000 amps for the EV parking. These are ballpark numbers and obviously vary on the size of building and number of stalls. Not likely that we will be seeing fast charging at these types of properties, but we are definitely seeing smart charging through companies like Chargepoint that manage the power to all the EVs so that it is used most efficiently. I really hope we don't move backwards as a society with the power demand of EVs creating a demand for more fossil fuel power production.





Advertisement

 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
2,889
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
How can Rivian patent a split pack? Seems like splitting hairs. Its not like rocket science. I think Amazon might of delivered that one. When did this happen btw?
They file an application and the Patent Office decides if the idea is novel enough to warrant a patent. If it is determined that your idea is "prior art" then no patent. Rivian filed a couple of years ago. The application can be found on line. I do not know whether the patent was ever granted.

Plugging my CT into a 350kW SC here would be interesting to say the least.
Used a V3 for the first time yesterday. Guess what? The X charged at 1C just the way in does on the V2's.
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
5,073
Reaction score
6,249
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
I could get that they had a patent for a particular interlock, but that's not what the patent says.

Often they're written as broadly as possible, which is somewhat troubling.

-Crissa
 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Messages
372
Reaction score
368
Location
6000
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Country flag
According to that article the international patent was knocked back as not being "novel" ie original. So hopefully it won't make it.

Generally patents are retarded. Even if you get one the protection they offer is limited by what jurisdiction your in (Many countries like China actually use them to copy stuff intentionally) and by how good a patent lawyer was making it. Let alone a patent is only worth how much you can afford in lawyers to defend it.

And that means they are only really designed for big corporations to limit competition, but not to protect an individuals original idea, let alone consumers. That in turn stifles innovation (hence why we are only now getting EVs again) which is to the detriment of all consumers. Medical patents, or DNA ones must be one of the biggest moral crimes of our modern history.

I mean philosophically there is no such thing as a "original art" anyway, in that everyone who can hear, see or touch has learnt something from someone else making their art a derivitive and not an original. In fact the act of decribing an art for making a patent is by nature only possible if you have learnt the "art" of language and legal definition created by a long history of developing other peoples ideas. IMHO patents are a hustle, just like fiat currency, designed to funnel the power of the masses to the top few.
 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Messages
372
Reaction score
368
Location
6000
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Country flag
Used a V3 for the first time yesterday. Guess what? The X charged at 1C just the way in does on the V2's.
Does that mean your MX is starting to show its age? :cry: Time to get a CT! :cool:

Maybe CT should just come with two charging ports that can be used at the same time. You'd just have to park your CT beween stalls. I thought semi was going to do something like that?

My comment about plugging a CT into a 350kW SC to a mini grid with 450Kw of average load (enough for a 1000people town) was more to demonstrate how ridiculously large a rate 350kW is for a single car, and in particular how fossil fuels have given our cars, and us humans horrifically large levels of energy for very little financial cost. I'm not sure where we would be without them in the last 100years.
 

HaulingAss

Well-known member
First Name
Mike
Joined
Oct 3, 2020
Messages
499
Reaction score
779
Location
Washington State
Vehicles
2010 Ford F-150, 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance
Country flag
So if 350kW charging is coming to the future, and the future is the 4680 cell, and the best 4680 cell is going into Cybertruck and Semi, can it be reasonable to say this is all but a confirmation of 350kW charging for the Cybertruck?

Frankly, this was the best news of the entire presentation IMO.
I don't think that's all that important. Sure, it might get to 350 kW but the current 250 kW is still superfast when charging in the lower half of the pack. Even a 350 kW charger is going to taper, probably to speeds similar to the 250 kW units so no huge advantage. 250 kW is already so fast I wouldn't benefit from faster speeds. After I've been on the highway for hours I need to stretch the legs and get something to eat or drink. As it is, I don't have time to eat, only grab a quick drink if there's something nearby.

EV detractors make a huge deal out of charging times because they think it's like filling up with gas where you stand there and wait. But in an EV you just put the plug in and leave. So the charging time shouldn't be so fast that you can't use the restroom and get a drink or something before you have to move the vehicle to avoid idle fees. I want at least 15 minutes or I feel rushed. If I'm getting a burger to go I want at least 20 minutes and sometimes even that's not enough.
 

HaulingAss

Well-known member
First Name
Mike
Joined
Oct 3, 2020
Messages
499
Reaction score
779
Location
Washington State
Vehicles
2010 Ford F-150, 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance
Country flag
They file an application and the Patent Office decides if the idea is novel enough to warrant a patent. If it is determined that your idea is "prior art" then no patent. Rivian filed a couple of years ago. The application can be found on line. I do not know whether the patent was ever granted.

Used a V3 for the first time yesterday. Guess what? The X charged at 1C just the way in does on the V2's.
It depends upon the Model and year as well as the state of charge, battery temperature, etc.
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
5,073
Reaction score
6,249
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
It depends upon the Model and year as well as the state of charge, battery temperature, etc.
And the charger's temperature, source of power, etc.

All charging tapers to the same point at the top end, so faster chargers just get you to 60% faster. Then the difference is marginal, because faster charger just means more taper.

-Crissa
 

JBee

Well-known member
First Name
JB
Joined
Nov 22, 2019
Messages
372
Reaction score
368
Location
6000
Vehicles
Cybertruck
Country flag
If we get +500mile range in a TM CT and around 200mile charge in 15minutes on a SC I'd be happy, as that would cover my requirements for my bimonthly 800mile round trip west to the big smoke for supplies. I'd be charging fullish from home via 30kW of roof solar, then maybe making a stop 250miles out at a SC they're just starting to build now along our main southern highway. That location is good for a quick topup and break both ways, meaning I'll be able to maintain a higher highway speed without having to worry about range.

For interstate travel the only option we have is a few 12/22kW destination chargers, which will likely require an overnight stay, so I'll have to pace myself a bit and slow down. The nearest city east (with a SC) is some 1500miles away which makes it a two night trip instead of our usual one night. But many of these places only have a single 3ph power point for just one car., so bad luck if someone gets there first. Obviously for those trips we'd likely be sleeping in the aircon vault to (with a pop camper build I've already designed) so RV parks also work. The Nullarbor can be both a scorcher and a freezer depending on the time of year.

Having a climatized vault is ideal for transporting perishables too, and around 3m³ of cargo space is also smack bang in the average pack size I need for my shopping trips. Otherwise I have to take one of the other shopping carts, 14m² van or 8m bed rigid 16t truck. What I'm hoping is that the FSD will make the drive more comfy, and at some point they add wildlife detection for kangas, wild boar, sheep and cows.
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
2,889
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
According to that article the international patent was knocked back as not being "novel" ie original. So hopefully it won't make it.
Don't know what may have, or will, happen. I thought I had a copy on my laptop but can't find it but as I recall it had about 20 claims only one of which was the series/parallel connection. The only other I recall was keeping the load connected to one of the halves during charging so that the car could continue to do all the functions it normally does during charging such as running the HVAC, navigation computer, entertainment systems etc.
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
2,889
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
Does that mean your MX is starting to show its age?
No. It's only a little over a year old. Note that it did take power at 1.9C in the early part of the charge. It is an empirical observation on my part that this car charges at an average rate of 1C from any charger that can deliver 100 kW or more. Now that's obviously over some reasonable delta charge level. If I'd been willing to press on after taking on only 20% charge I would have been out of there in 10 minutes.

Time to get a CT!
Yes, absolutely! But that's independent of the X. I'll probably keep it.

Maybe CT should just come with two charging ports that can be used at the same time. You'd just have to park your CT beween stalls. I thought semi was going to do something like that?
Yes, evidently they have been charging the test Semi's that way.

My comment about plugging a CT into a 350kW SC to a mini grid with 450Kw of average load (enough for a 1000people town) was more to demonstrate how ridiculously large a rate 350kW is for a single car, and in particular how fossil fuels have given our cars, and us humans horrifically large levels of energy for very little financial cost. I'm not sure where we would be without them in the last 100years.
So much in electricity depends on "crest factor", the ratio of the peak to the average demand. My X will take 350 kW from the battery under the right, or rather I should say, the wrong conditions even though the average is more like 20 kW (cf = 17.5). You have to size for the peak, not the average and that leads to lots of problems with infrastructure and indeed within the vehicle itself.
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
2,889
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
I don't think that's all that important. Sure, it might get to 350 kW but the current 250 kW is still superfast when charging in the lower half of the pack. Even a 350 kW charger is going to taper, probably to speeds similar to the 250 kW units so no huge advantage.
If read various posts you will usually find a graph of the Tesla profile often with some other OEMs superposed to show you that the other guys is much better. The Tesla profile is flat up to some SoC and then falls off as one goes beyond the breakpoint. What the people posting these don't seem to realize is that the profile realized depends on the car, the charger and the conditions. As I've never charged at a V3 before I looked at the charge in some detail. Here's what I found:
Graph0.jpg


This is the realized profile in the usual format. The car's API reports only SoC and rate at which miles are being added and it only does it once a minute (or TeslaFi only asks for it once a minute). Knowing rate at which miles are being added and how many kWh it takes to go a mile one can calculate the rate at which power is going to the battery. This assumes 100% round trip efficiency so the power going to the battery is actually a bit more than this.

Note that this is not THE Tesla profile. It is one example of a Tesla profile at a V3 SC.

What is more interesting is the time history of the charge. It is shown in this picture:

TeslaProfile.jpg


What's interesting here is that the car seems to vary its power demand such that SoC increases linearly at a rate of about 1.7C until 40% or so SoC is reached after which it switches to right around 1C and holds that up to around 70% SoC after which it declines again. Overall the average rate is pretty constant at 1.11C so that you can use the ROT "half the battery takes half an hour". Here 48% of the battery took 25 minutes.


250 kW is already so fast I wouldn't benefit from faster speeds. After I've been on the highway for hours I need to stretch the legs and get something to eat or drink. As it is, I don't have time to eat, only grab a quick drink if there's something nearby.

EV detractors make a huge deal out of charging times because they think it's like filling up with gas where you stand there and wait. But in an EV you just put the plug in and leave. So the charging time shouldn't be so fast that you can't use the restroom and get a drink or something before you have to move the vehicle to avoid idle fees. I want at least 15 minutes or I feel rushed. If I'm getting a burger to go I want at least 20 minutes and sometimes even that's not enough.
I can't seem to get out of a charging station in less than half an hour and often wind up sitting there finishing my sandwich or whatever after charging is complete. Half an hour for half a charge is fine for me but note that a CT with a 200 kWh battery is going to require a 400 kW charger if it is going to be able to duplicate the performance of this V3 SC.
 

CyberGus

Well-known member
First Name
Gus
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
171
Reaction score
443
Location
Austin, TX
Vehicles
1981 DeLorean, 2022 Cybertruck
Occupation
IT Specialist
Country flag
I think I see what they're getting at with the patent: the use of higher voltages to get more power through the charging system at a lower amperage.

Power lines are carrying 100,000+ volts because there is less resistance and loss. At higher voltages, the EV charging infrastructure (including the cable) could be smaller, while providing the same amount of power.

Of course, this requires a step-down transformer in the car to get to the proper voltage for the pack, which tends to be heavy/bulky. The patent is suggesting to put the cells in series to increase the resistance and drive the voltage down, so that a higher voltage than the pack could be delivered without overloading it.

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's better for overall battery pack health. I rate this patent a meh.
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
2,889
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
I ran the analysis on a V2 charge at Brattleboro, VT. This is the profile:
BrattlProfile.jpg


And this the time history:

BrtlHistory.jpg


The interesting this is that while the V3 sent peak power of almost 200 kW to the car and the V2 only 145 they both charged the car overall at the same rate: about 1C;
 

ajdelange

Well-known member
First Name
A. J.
Joined
Dec 8, 2019
Messages
2,695
Reaction score
2,889
Location
Virginia/Quebec
Vehicles
Tesla X LR+, Lexus SUV, Toyota SR5, Toyota Landcruiser
Occupation
EE (Retired)
Country flag
I think I see what they're getting at with the patent: the use of higher voltages to get more power through the charging system at a lower amperage.
It is mainly in the cabling external to the car. This includes the charging hose and the cables between the cabinets and the terminals. If they can double the voltage they halve the current and reduce I^2R losses to 1/4.

Power lines are carrying 100,000+ volts because there is less resistance and loss.
Power lines carry very high voltages so that the resistance does not matter. Same as above. Losses go down as the square of the current. They can use 1/100 the conductor cross section if they can get the current down by a factor of 10.

At higher voltages, the EV charging infrastructure (including the cable) could be smaller, while providing the same amount of power.
That's the general idea but note that there are some copper savings in the car too. One OEM says about 30 lbs worth IIRC.


Of course, this requires a step-down transformer in the car to get to the proper voltage for the pack, which tends to be heavy/bulky.
Nope. No transformer. If you put two 400 V packs in series you now have an 800 V string.


The patent is suggesting to put the cells in series to increase the resistance and drive the voltage down, so that a higher voltage than the pack could be delivered without overloading it.
Putting the packs in series doubles the series resistance but as the current is one half the internal losses go down by 50% - another advantage of this scheme.



It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's better for overall battery pack health.
No impact on battery health. The current to each cell is the same as in the parallel configuration.



I rate this patent a meh.
You need to think about it a little more. To get the higher charging rates everyone wants with the bigger batteries in these trucks you either have to go to an 800V architecture or use this trick to stay with a 400 V architecture.
 

Advertisement





 


Advertisement
Top