Found a great EV power/charging solution

anionic1

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So as many of you have done, I was researching the best solution for EV charging. Obviously the Tesla Wall Connector is the best option for a Tesla. Its interior/exterior rated and it can transfer a lot of power. But having not bought the EV yet, I was thinking well what if I want more options and don't want to just hardwire the Wall Connector or what if we did get an different make or what if we want to take the wall connector with us when we move. So I should just install a 220 plug right. But should it be a 30 amp or 50 amp? From what I read some higher end chargers are closer to 60 amp and Tesla use to offer a 80 amp charger. The choices are surprisingly numerous. Thankfully I came across the right post and it directed me to this masterpiece. It gives you every option you can think of and its lockable w/ the devices plugged in and its exterior rated with GFCI etc. and has every power option you could ever need. It comes prewired with a 30 amp, 50 amp and 120 duplex receptacle and all the breakers. And if you really want that Tesla Wall Connector hard wired there is space to add breakers and hard wire the Wall Connector directly to it so you don't have to mess with the main panel which usually is pretty cluttered already. The Cybertruck won't fit in the garage and I don't feel like opening the garage and dragging the cable out and closing the garage everyday etc. so I am installing this EV panel on the exterior side of my house next to my main panel close to the driveway so there are no limitations. Its rated at 125 amps so I am running 2-2-2-4 CU THHN to it with a 125 amp breaker. If Tesla comes out with a higher amperage charger for the CT I will be ready. And I can plug in the RV/camper, the pressure washer and my wife's EV (after I get the CT first). I was worried at first that the panel was going to be big and look more cluttered on the side of my house but it actually is fairly compact and the reviews are amazing. I bought it for about $200 on amazon. It was about $160 a couple months ago and I am seeing it on other vendors sites for about $160, but its holding up my final inspection due to lead time issues and amazon was able to get it to me in 2 days. I spent about another $200 in wire, main breaker, parts etc. and I will be installing at no cost. It would probably be another $300 for install for an electrician for 1 day and you should probably permit it which depending on your city could run up to $200. So not including the cost of the charger could get up to around $900. Some more progressive cities are not charging for EV permit stuff. Some utilities even give large credits towards EV chargers. SoCal Edison used to give a $1500 EV charger rebate and I hear that it may be coming back.

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Klaxon

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Looks nice but it may not have the Canadian certification 🤢
What about the protection from unauthorized access? Do you have to switch off a breaker every time or just leave it ON believing that children will not discover with a nail what is inside the slots? And where the cable would be stored?

I have spent about 200 CAD for 50A breaker + 11 meters of 6 AWG cable + NEMA 14-50R connector + 100 CAD for the permit to install inside the garage and am scratching my head trying to find the best way for the extension cable (not yet purchased) to outside.
 
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anionic1

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Looks nice but it may not have the Canadian certification 🤢
What about the protection from unauthorized access? Do you have to switch off a breaker every time or just leave it ON believing that children will not discover with a nail what is inside the slots? And where the cable would be stored?

I have spent about 200 CAD for 50A breaker + 11 meters of 6 AWG cable + NEMA 14-50R connector + 100 CAD for the permit to install inside the garage and am scratching my head trying to find the best way for the extension cable (not yet purchased) to outside.
The nice thing on this one is that it has this fold down lid that you can lock that essentially locks the plugs in so kids can't stick things in the holes and malicious folks can't unplug the charger and take it with them. In your situation Tesla is going to need to come up with a solution for a longer charger cable. Elon already admitted that it wont be a garage vehicle so the cable will need to extend outside the garage and the port is near the back so I can see people needing 40' of cable depending on where their charger is mounted. I would think that Tesla will have a new solution for this since their wall connector is 18' of cable and that's not going to work unless you back the truck in to your driveway or mount the charger very close to the garage door. It looks like the charge port will be about 16' from the front of the vehicle. I really hope they offer a charger with a longer cable.
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Klaxon

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I would prefer the charging port in the frunk of CT or on the front bumper
 
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The nice thing on this one is that it has this fold down lid that you can lock that essentially locks the plugs in so kids can't stick things in the holes and malicious folks can't unplug the charger and take it with them. In your situation Tesla is going to need to come up with a solution for a longer charger cable. Elon already admitted that it wont be a garage vehicle so the cable will need to extend outside the garage and the port is near the back so I can see people needing 40' of cable depending on where their charger is mounted. I would think that Tesla will have a new solution for this since their wall connector is 18' of cable and that's not going to work unless you back the truck in to your driveway or mount the charger very close to the garage door. It looks like the charge port will be about 16' from the front of the vehicle. I really hope they offer a charger with a longer cable.
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I would prefer the charging port in the frunk of CT or on the front bumper
In the frunk would be a terrible design unfortunately. If you are at a charger that isn't as fast as a Tesla Supercharger, it might take a few hours to charge, possibly even longer. You wouldn't be able to safely leave anything in the frunk if it had to be open during charging.

I personally like the placement of the tesla charge ports. I would rather back up to a charging stall and then drive away than to drive up to one and then reverse out. Even with back up cameras, i've seen people drive into vehicles that are backing out.
 

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There are a million ways to skin this cat and the subpanel discussed here is certainly one of them. There is only one possible problem I can see with it and that if you configure it with a 14-50 and that is the 125A breaker in the main panel to feed it. That's 62% of 200A and if your main panel is 200A it probably has 400 pole amps worth of breakers in it and adding 150 to that may raise the inspector's eyebrows. Even dding a single NEMA 14-50R to a 200 A panel is adding 120 pole amps (a 60 A breaker is required) and that by itself may be deemed too much for an already heavily populated 200 A panel.

Now OP mentions a 125A breaker to feed the subpanel. The 14-50R in it is a 60A load when used to supply EVSE, the 14-30R (if that's what the 30A receptacle is) is 30A load and the duplex, assuming each of it's receptacle is wired to a separate phase, a 20A load totalling 110A. So why put in a 125A breaker? Because that's the smallest size that will accommodate a 110A load. OP also mentions not using any of the onboard outlets for EVSE but rather installing additional breakers in this subpanel and hardwiring EVSE to that. Most of the hardwired ones require a 60 A circuit which would bring the 110 A load for this subpanel to 170A. A 125 A breaker would not be adequate and obviously a breaker of that size in a 200 A main panel isn't likely to fly. But it might! If you can convince the inspector using the logic that the 14-50R, the 14-30R, the duplex and the hardwired EVSE will never all be on together (a totally reasonable assumption) he might pass it. And this brings us round to the point of all my ramblings and that is that it is, IMO, essential to have a good electrician (hard to find) where "good" here means that he is familiar with EVSE and he knows what the local inspectors will accept.

The other route is to record consumption and demonstrate to the inspector that you will never exceed the breaker rating on the main panel. As an example when I installed a 100 A breaker in a 200 A panel that was so full that we had to put in tandems to get it to fit, the inspector arched his eyebrows. The electrician simply said "See all those CT's in the panel? This guy knows where every amp in his house goes" and that was enough to get the inspector to sign off. He never asked to see the data but if he did I could tell him that the most ever drawn from that panel (200A) was 20.84 kW (86.9 Amp.) and that it happened at Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 07:06 AM. Adding 100 A to that does not exceed the panel capacity especially when you take into consideration that even though there are two EVSE on that breaker they could, even if they were charging old S with the 80A chargers, the circuit would never take more than 80 A.

Obviously installing load monitoring equipment can lead to some interesting observations about how you use electricity, allow you to know how much you are using to charge your BEV and is especially appealing to those with solar, windmills or waterwheels but obviously there is an expense involved.

Finally I take minor exception to the notion that Tesla EVSE is the best EVSE for charging a Tesla but that's because I'm a little browned off at them at the moment. Evidently there have been a couple of fires caused by faulty connection of the pins in the charging wand and the receptacle in some of the Tesla cars. The charging wands have always has a temperature sensor and Tesla's response to these fires has been, in firmware, to lower the temperature at which the Wall Connector reduces allowable charge. This is to the point that I've been finding my charging rates reduced just from the sun shining on the wand. Beyond that there are several other EVSE out there that can be used to charge a Tesla with the J1772 adapter (and conversely with the Tesla Tap).
 

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For the 14-50R connector with 50A nominal current the recommended load is 80% or 40A. And the breaker protecting from overheating rated 50A
 

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The 25% margin for continuous loads is to protect the wiring. I'll readily admit that I am not certain about the receptacle but i believe that you can take 50 A from a 14-50R continuously as long as it is on a 62.5A circuit (14-50R and 14-50R are identical except for the neutral pin). Thus you would really need a 70A breaker. But no EVSE is sold (that I know of) that will take more than 40 A from a 14-50R so you might be able to argue that 50 A breaker is adequate. I put 48A (the maximum any wall connector will take) and 14-50R behind 60A breakers.

[Edit] And everything above is horse pucky. You can only put a 14-50R on a 50A or 40A circuit!
In fact my 14-50R receptacles are behind 50A breakers and my hardwired EVSE are also behind 50A breakers (they are all either 40 A max units or commissioned for 40A).

Speaking of the hardwired ones: I meant to comment with respect to replacing them at a future date with something else that the Tesla Gen 3 HPWC naturally require one to use a long wire loop internally such that there is probably enough to wire most other wall mounts with the existing wires. The Pulsar does not require such a loop but it is possible to stuff one in there so it is future proofed too. Note that I run neutral to all of these even though it is not needed.
 
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anionic1

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There are a million ways to skin this cat and the subpanel discussed here is certainly one of them. There is only one possible problem I can see with it and that if you configure it with a 14-50 and that is the 125A breaker in the main panel to feed it. That's 62% of 200A and if your main panel is 200A it probably has 400 pole amps worth of breakers in it and adding 150 to that may raise the inspector's eyebrows. Even dding a single NEMA 14-50R to a 200 A panel is adding 120 pole amps (a 60 A breaker is required) and that by itself may be deemed too much for an already heavily populated 200 A panel.

Now OP mentions a 125A breaker to feed the subpanel. The 14-50R in it is a 60A load when used to supply EVSE, the 14-30R (if that's what the 30A receptacle is) is 30A load and the duplex, assuming each of it's receptacle is wired to a separate phase, a 20A load totalling 110A. So why put in a 125A breaker? Because that's the smallest size that will accommodate a 110A load. OP also mentions not using any of the onboard outlets for EVSE but rather installing additional breakers in this subpanel and hardwiring EVSE to that. Most of the hardwired ones require a 60 A circuit which would bring the 110 A load for this subpanel to 170A. A 125 A breaker would not be adequate and obviously a breaker of that size in a 200 A main panel isn't likely to fly. But it might! If you can convince the inspector using the logic that the 14-50R, the 14-30R, the duplex and the hardwired EVSE will never all be on together (a totally reasonable assumption) he might pass it. And this brings us round to the point of all my ramblings and that is that it is, IMO, essential to have a good electrician (hard to find) where "good" here means that he is familiar with EVSE and he knows what the local inspectors will accept.

The other route is to record consumption and demonstrate to the inspector that you will never exceed the breaker rating on the main panel. As an example when I installed a 100 A breaker in a 200 A panel that was so full that we had to put in tandems to get it to fit, the inspector arched his eyebrows. The electrician simply said "See all those CT's in the panel? This guy knows where every amp in his house goes" and that was enough to get the inspector to sign off. He never asked to see the data but if he did I could tell him that the most ever drawn from that panel (200A) was 20.84 kW (86.9 Amp.) and that it happened at Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 07:06 AM. Adding 100 A to that does not exceed the panel capacity especially when you take into consideration that even though there are two EVSE on that breaker they could, even if they were charging old S with the 80A chargers, the circuit would never take more than 80 A.

Obviously installing load monitoring equipment can lead to some interesting observations about how you use electricity, allow you to know how much you are using to charge your BEV and is especially appealing to those with solar, windmills or waterwheels but obviously there is an expense involved.

Finally I take minor exception to the notion that Tesla EVSE is the best EVSE for charging a Tesla but that's because I'm a little browned off at them at the moment. Evidently there have been a couple of fires caused by faulty connection of the pins in the charging wand and the receptacle in some of the Tesla cars. The charging wands have always has a temperature sensor and Tesla's response to these fires has been, in firmware, to lower the temperature at which the Wall Connector reduces allowable charge. This is to the point that I've been finding my charging rates reduced just from the sun shining on the wand. Beyond that there are several other EVSE out there that can be used to charge a Tesla with the J1772 adapter (and conversely with the Tesla Tap).
I am definitely not an electrician and most of my electrical knowledge comes from google and my work as an construction estimator and hands on experience at home. Without going into a lengthy conversation about eletrical code I want to respond to one of your comments. I believe that there isn't much limit on how many amps in breakers (over current protection device, OCPD) you put on a panel and if there is space to fit then you can add an OCPD. If all my OCPDs on my 200 amp main add up to 500 amps that's ok as long as no individual breaker/circuit is larger than the main 200 amp service OCPD. I understand that it is very common to have a sum of OCPD amps that add up to greater than the main OCPD because the chance of all the circuits drawing power simultaneously is low and if they do then the bus is protected by the main OCPD.

I chose to max out that 125 amp EV/RV sub panel simply because if a charging solution does come along that can use more amps I want to have it available and the added cost to upsize the wires and breakers now is minimal. So the same would go for the sub panel. Currently the OCPDs add up to 90 amps on the 125 amp panel, but even if I added a 100 amp breaker in one of the open spots and the total would added up to 190 amps on that sub panel, rated for 125 amps, its ok because everything is properly protected and the chance of all circuits drawing over 125 amps is still low. Honestly, its pretty crazy how difficult it is to find answers to questions like this not being in the profession and there are definitely conflicting opinions online. I work for a GC that does about $700M a year in construction and often have electrical contracts greater than $5M and even those guys struggle to answer things like this with confidence that would seem like basic electrical knowledge. I literally had to tell my electrician that we are going to use 2-2-2-4 CU in 1 1/4" conduit and that it would pass for 125 amps. He was saying that I needed to use 1/0 CU in a 1 1/2" conduit etc. for a 125 amp panel.

Last comment is that I believe the Tesla Wall Connector allows up to 48 amps if you have a 60 amp breaker and it maxes out at 40 amps on a 50 amp breaker or a nema 14-50 outlet. I don't have one yet so I don't know how it can tell or if you have to tell it what your breaker is. So I would guess that to max out the wall connector you can't use it plugged in to a Nema 14-50 and it would need to be direct wired with a 60 amp breaker. I read its better to charge at lower power anyway to extend battery life so maybe its not a bad thing and I think you can tell the charger what charge rate to use. Anyway, like you said there are a million ways to skin this cat. I am just hoping to get it set up with as robust options as possible so I don't need to re skin the cat later.

I will be getting an inspection next week and I will update the post.
 
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anionic1

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Most people will probably use what you are showing for an exterior application. I mostly like the versatility of the panel I am suggesting because I have space on the side of my house to also have a travel trailer. A lot of home buyers in our neighborhood like that our lots have space for RVs, boats etc. and having that panel will be a positive selling point one day. I can see in the near future where the trailers will also have their own battery packs that need to be charged and the Siemens/Talon panel would allow me to have the trailer plugged in on the 30 amp, the Cybertruck plugged in on the 50amp and the pressure washer plugged in on the 20 amp. Truth be told that day may never come but if it does you better believe I will 100% feel justified in the extra money I spent.
 

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I am definitely not an electrician and most of my electrical knowledge comes from google and my work as an construction estimator and hands on experience at home. Without going into a lengthy conversation about eletrical code I want to respond to one of your comments. I believe that there isn't much limit on how many amps in breakers (over current protection device, OCPD) you put on a panel and if there is space to fit then you can add an OCPD. If all my OCPDs on my 200 amp main add up to 500 amps that's ok as long as no individual breaker/circuit is larger than the main 200 amp service OCPD.
I can't point to the code section that addresses this but yes, there is a limit. It seems to be somewhere around twice the pole amperes of the panel breaker thus for a 200 amp (400 pole amp) breaker you will not raise any eyebrows if you stay under 800 pole amps of branch breakers. I've talked to a couple of electricians about this and they sort of mumble confirmation. It is ultimately up to the inspector. If he sees 900 or 1000 and looks at the type of load he may pass it. That is why it is so important that you use an electrician who knows the inspectors in your jurisdiction.

You can put as many pole amps as the panel will fit IF YOU CAN DEMONSTRATE FROM ACTUAL RECORDS THAT THIS DOES NOT OVERLOAD THE PANEL. I think a year's worth is required. That's why I mentioned that option in my previous post in which I gave an example of the inspector being happy with well over double based on the electricians assurance that I have the records.

I understand that it is very common to have a sum of OCPD amps that add up to greater than the main OCPD because the chance of all the circuits drawing power simultaneously is low and if they do then the bus is protected by the main OCPD.
Yes that's true. In fact it's universal. As I said above the ROT seems to be branches twice feeder.


Honestly, its pretty crazy how difficult it is to find answers to questions like this not being in the profession and there are definitely conflicting opinions online.
The problem is that there is no one answer. For a normal residence it is probably true that the load factor (peak to average) is 5 or so with a standard deviation of 1 or 2. But a house with EVSE is not a normal house. Load factors are going to be much higher unless you always charge at a rate less than your car can take. And that might be an approach you can take with a troublesome inspector. E.G. promise to commission your 48 A EVSE at 30 A.

I literally had to tell my electrician that we are going to use 2-2-2-4 CU in 1 1/4" conduit and that it would pass for 125 amps. He was saying that I needed to use 1/0 CU in a 1 1/2" conduit etc. for a 125 amp panel.
I think you said you were using THHN. Yes, that will handle up to 130 A but the breaker must be rated for 90 °C. Most people would use No. 1 and a 75° breaker. I'm not sure about the panel end. I guess it's terminals have to be rated at 90 °C too. I'd revisit that question.

Last comment is that I believe the Tesla Wall Connector allows up to 48 amps if you have a 60 amp breaker and it maxes out at 40 amps on a 50 amp breaker or a nema 14-50 outlet.
The Tesla HPWC can be installed behind a 60A breaker if commissioned for a 60A breaker (max delivered to the car 48 A) and behind a 50 A breaker if commissioned for 50 A (max 40 A to the car) etc.

I don't have one yet so I don't know how it can tell or if you have to tell it what your breaker is.
You set the breaker size at commissioning which is done over the units internal WiFi hotspot.

So I would guess that to max out the wall connector you can't use it plugged in to a Nema 14-50 and it would need to be direct wired with a 60 amp breaker.
This is true. You cannot install EVSE with a plug greater than 50 A implying 40 A to the car.


I read its better to charge at lower power anyway to extend battery life so maybe its not a bad thing and I think you can tell the charger what charge rate to use.
Also true. If you are charging at night at home do you really care that much about how fast it is.


I will be getting an inspection next week and I will update the post.
Hope you pass! Only issue I see is with the breaker terminal temperature rating. Perhaps your electrician caught that nuance and got the right temperature grade breaker for you. Perhaps the inspector won't catch it if he didn't.
 

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Actually you may be OK with the 90° wire and a standard breaker
 

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Almost all the truck drivers here back into parking spots (me included). The reason is simple geometry. You can't start turning when backing out of a spot if people are parked beside you until your nose is past their vehicles. Now, that's about 22 feet of truck there... There are a lot of parking lots where you can have trouble backing out of a spot. Now, backing in and then pulling out of a spot is much easier because you can start turning before your rear is all the way out of the spot and it allows you to leave your parking spot much easier.

Having said that, I'm glad the charge port is at the back because I back into spots and my garage. My CT will be kept in the garage... not to protect it as much as to keep me from having to trudge through snow to get to it... or the rain... or the heat... And yes, it'll start off warmer/cooler than if it was kept outside.

(Now, if I get that solar panel option...)
 
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