FSD Beta v9 v10 or any FSD Beta & children in car

[Bill906]

I think of FSD (Beta) like a 15 year old with a learners permit. It’s allowed to drive, but only with a licensed adult present.

To the OP, Let’s consider a single mom with a 15 year old and a 5 year old. The 15 year old has her learners permit and needs time behind the wheel. Mom is very busy and can only make time to let her daughter drive during errands when the 5 year old is also with them. Is this child endangerment?

I realize my example is not perfect. I would like to point out that with FSD (beta) the licensed adult can almost immediately take control. Where as in the student driver scenario if something goes wrong all the licensed driver can do is scream “SKYLER… LOOK OUT FOR THAT…. AHHHHHHH!”

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[Dids]

I think of FSD (Beta) like a 15 year old with a learners permit. It’s allowed to drive, but only with a licensed adult present.

To the OP, Let’s consider a single mom with a 15 year old and a 5 year old. The 15 year old has her learners permit and needs time behind the wheel. Mom is very busy and can only make time to let her daughter drive during errands when the 5 year old is also with them. Is this child endangerment?

I realize my example is not perfect. I would like to point out that with FSD (beta) the licensed adult can almost immediately take control. Where as in the student driver scenario if something goes wrong all the licensed driver can do is scream “SKYLER… LOOK OUT FOR THAT…. AHHHHHHH!”

Skyler, you idiot you where supposed to save the cheerleader, save the world.

 

[firsttruck]

I think of FSD (Beta) like a 15 year old with a learners permit. It’s allowed to drive, but only with a licensed adult present.

To the OP, Let’s consider a single mom with a 15 year old and a 5 year old. The 15 year old has her learners permit and needs time behind the wheel. Mom is very busy and can only make time to let her daughter drive during errands when the 5 year old is also with them. Is this child endangerment?

I realize my example is not perfect. I would like to point out that with FSD (beta) the licensed adult can almost immediately take control. Where as in the student driver scenario if something goes wrong all the licensed driver can do is scream “SKYLER… LOOK OUT FOR THAT…. AHHHHHHH!”

I have had many hours of dual control instruction in planes & solo flown single engine high wing planes. Dual controls help reduce delays but do not eliminate all delays.
Sometimes less than a second is the difference between no problem and disaster.
Sometimes even with several minutes or tens of minutes of time available both student & instructor fail to notice issue.

At the flight school I attended, even when a flight instructor was co-pilot, student family or friend passengers were NOT permitted onboard.

Besides studying EVs one of my other hobbies is reading official accident reports for trains, trams, ski lifts, ships, planes.
It is amazing that in this modern day & age (last 40 years) that lessons are still not learned from previous events.


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NTSB cites pilot error in last year's fatal plane crash that killed student & flight instructor.
The NTSB report Tuesday that says, "A pilots' failure to maintain adequate airspeed during a slow flight maneuver that resulted in a stall and spin, and the flight instructor's delayed or improper remedial actions to recover from the spin. Contributing to the accident was the flight school's inadequate safety program."
By Genelle Pugmire - Daily Herald
Nov 26, 2011
https://www.heraldextra.com/news/lo...cle_0d405812-d2ea-565c-9405-9a13c597fa84.html

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Pilot error likely cause of Springbank (Calgary, Canada) plane crash which killed student pilot and instructor.
Crash wasn’t the result of mechanical failure, states an interim investigators’ report.
Author of the article: Bill Kaufmann
Publishing date: Dec 18, 2017 • December 19, 2017
https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...atal-springbank-plane-crash-say-investigators

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Pilot Error, Instructor Delay Caused Deadly T-38 Crash at Vance, Report Finds
A T-38 Talon instructor pilot failed to take control of the aircraft when his student prematurely used a braking maneuver after touching down
Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk
4 May 2020
https://www.military.com/daily-news...sed-deadly-t-38-crash-vance-report-finds.html

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Error cited in fatal Mohawk River plane crash
The June plane crash that killed three on takeoff at the Mohawk Valley Airport has been blamed on PI (Pilot Instructor)
Killed in the June 14 crash were a flight instructor, his student and the student’s 11-year-old son.
** firsttruck ** at the flight school I attended that child would not have been allowed on the plane **
Student had over 120 hours which is a fair amount (much more than a couple flights).
Possible student had wrong flap setting and instructor did not correct soon enough.
By Steven Cook | October 29, 2009
https://dailygazette.com/2009/10/29/1029_ntsb/

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Pilot error cause of 2017 Duncan, B.C., plane crash, TSB finds
Student and instructor were injured after plane attempted to land at too high a speed
** firsttruck ** instructor should have had student do go-around. **
CBC News (British Columbia, Canada)
Posted: Feb 13, 2018 3:00 PM PT | Last Updated: February 13, 2018
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/january-2017-duncan-plane-crash-1.4533637

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ASN Wikibase Occurrence # 221597
Date: 06-FEB-2019
Time: c. 10:15
Type: Silhouette image of generic SIRA model; specific model in this crash may look slightly different
Tecnam P2002-JF
Owner/operator: Quality Fly
Registration: EC-NAM
MSN: 259
Fatalities: Fatalities: 2 / Occupants: 2 (Student and instructor)
The investigation has determined that the cause of the accident was the lack of adherence to visual flight rules, in particular, the poor exterior surveillance by the crew of the EC-NAM aircraft.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/221597

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Fatal Offaly air crash that killed instructor and trainee was caused by inadequate fuel in the tank
No technical faults that could have contributed to the crash were found by investigators looking into the deaths of the two men near Birr airfield last year.
A LIGHT AIRCRAFT crash that killed two men in Birr, Co. Offaly last year was caused by a lack fuel in the tanks according to a report by investigators.
Flying instructor Niall Doherty and trainee Damien Deegan were killed when their Cessna F150H crashed near Birr Airfield on 11 November 2012.
The report published today found that then men had completed a touch-and-go landing where their plane touched down and immediately took off again without stopping.
During the climb which followed the plane was heard by witnesses to lose power before they saw the aircraft making a steep descent and turn to the left before disappearing from view. The aircraft impacted heavily in scrub land and came to rest inverted, it was completely destroyed by the crash.
The Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) of the Department of Transport found that the engine power loss was caused by fuel starvation. No technical faults that could have contributed to the crash were found. The AAIU issuing eight safety recommendations as a result of the fatal incident.
By Rónán Duffy
Oct 29th 2013 ( Ireland )
https://www.thejournal.ie/air-crash-1151594-Oct2013

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Aeroméxico Connect Flight 2431 Date: July 31, 2018
The report identified contributing factors to the accident caused by the flight crew. One factor was that the pilot of the plane, who was not a certified instructor, was giving an instruction to a student pilot, who was flying the plane at the time. This caused a loss of situational awareness and the pilots did not maintain a "sterile cockpit", one that was free from ** distractions **.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroméxico_Connect_Flight_2431

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[firsttruck]

I realize my example is not perfect. I would like to point out that with FSD (beta) the licensed adult can almost immediately take control. Where as in the student driver scenario if something goes wrong all the licensed driver can do is scream “SKYLER… LOOK OUT FOR THAT…. AHHHHHHH!”

Actually that is not always true. Sometimes there are multiple controls in ICE cars.

There are several aftermarket companies that sell complete duplicate controls for most any car/SUV. Even joystick controls for cars.

In some U.S. states & countries around world, it is required that driving school training/instructor vehicles have at minimum an extra mirror and a passenger seat emergency brake for the instructor's use.

Some training/instructor vehicles have extra steering wheel and accelerator pedal too.

Still an instructor's delayed reaction time can be too much to prevent/avoid accident.

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Ohio driving student, 16, and instructor both killed during crash after student ran intersection stop sign. Neither car seems to have tried to brake. Cars used in driving instruction must have brakes on their passenger sides, where the instructors sit, Lt. Bill Bowers of the Ohio Highway Patrol told the Blade. The car involved in Monday's crash was to be inspected by police as part of their investigation.
The driving school's owner, Bonnie Lech, told the paper the school's cars have the required two sets of brakes, for the driver and the instructor.
By Associated Press and Zoe Szathmary
29 Apr 2014
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...crash-student-ran-intersection-stop-sign.html. I

Investigation continues into student driver's fatal crash
After a student driver and instructor were killed in a fatal accident Monday, OSHP troopers are focusing on what caused the two to run the stop sign, and stressing the importance of safety behind the wheel.
The instructor vehicles must have an extra mirror and a passenger seat emergency brake.
The OSHP says the instructor's car from the fatal accident had passed its annual safety inspection.
Author: Steven Jackson, Tim Miller
Published: April 30, 2014
https://www.wtol.com/article/news/i...rash/512-aeb8484f-e3d5-4d29-b966-abf95e23454c

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Student crashes Volkswagen ID.3 training car
The fact that an electric car immediately has all the torque available does not help either. Even before the driving instructor could intervene.
By Diego Meadows
May 10, 202
https://nltimes.nl/2021/05/10/driving-lesson-utrecht-ends-training-car-lands-top-convertible

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2 HS students killed when driver's ed vehicle collides with tractor trailer
The students were taking a driving lesson Tuesday morning when police say their Chevy Malibu sedan approached a flashing red light at Blooms Corner Road and County Road. The driver of the tractor trailer says the car initially stopped, but then pulled into the intersection and into his path.
The two kids who died were in the back seat, along with O'Connor. Krebs was behind the wheel, with the 60-year-old instructor in the passenger seat. He was not seriously hurt.
WARWICK, NY
July 15, 2015
https://abc7chicago.com/warwick-orange-county-crash-accident/852856/

Police issued tickets to Anglero (instructor) and Krebs (student) for failure to yield the right of way.

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A driving instructor has died after the learner driver crashed the car during her test.
Shirley Martin, 56, a Virginia driving instructor, has died after a novice driver crashed the car during her driving skills test.
The car, a 1998 white Honda four door sedan, was travelling south when it ran off the road at an intersection.
The car then hit a tree and flipped, investigators said.
By Daily Mail Reporter
17 July 2011
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...r-killed-car-crashes-driving-skills-exam.html

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Driving instructor dies after crash with student behind the wheel
Deputies say William Reddoch IV was headed south on US 52 in a driver’s education vehicle when he stopped abruptly in the left lane. A pick up truck traveling behind struck the back of the vehicle.
Deputies believe the student driver was preparing to turn left at the intersection when he stopped.
by: Joe Clark
Posted: Jan 18, 2016
https://www.nbc4i.com/news/driving-instructor-dies-after-crash-with-student-behind-the-wheel

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[Crissa]

The difference in lethality between an airplane and a car should be rather abundantly clear.

-Crissa

 

[Bill906]

I have had many hours of dual control instruction in planes & solo flown single engine high wing planes.

So have I. Guessing Cessna 172?

At the flight school I attended, even when a flight instructor was co-pilot, student family or friend passengers were NOT permitted onboard.

Where I trained it was not forbidden but it rarely happened. I'm assuming it was up to the instructors discretion. Guessing cross country flights were ok, but stall training probably not so much. I remember a brother and sister that would take turns training and when not training would ride in the plane during their siblings training.

Besides studying EVs one of my other hobbies is reading official accident reports for trains, trams, ski lifts, ships, planes.

You and I have similar interests. One of my favorite shows is Air Disasters on the Smithsonian Channel.

It is amazing that in this modern day & age (last 40 years) that lessons are still not learned from previous events.

I disagree. Compared to other forms of travel and other risky endeavors humans take on aviation is amazing in how they investigate events and then use what they learned to keep it from happening again.

Actually that is not always true. Sometimes there are multiple controls in ICE cars.

True, but in my example of a parent letting her child drive with a learners permit, I would say the number of times the car has multiple controls is next to zero.

 

[firsttruck]

--------------------------------

Elon Musk
@elonmusk
8:18 PM · Jul 8, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

Running preproduction software is both work & fun.
....
Beta 9 addresses most known issues "from Beta 8", but there will be unknown issues, so please be paranoid.
....

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Tesla finally releases Full Self-Driving Beta v9: here’s what it looks like
Fred Lambert
Jul. 10th 2021
https://electrek.co/2021/07/10/tesla-full-self-driving-beta-v9-first-videos-release-notes/

Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta v9 Release Notes

Tesla didn’t go into many details about the improvements to the driving system in the release notes.

Instead, the automaker mainly reiterated important warnings regarding the use of the feature:

“Full Self-Driving is in early limited access Beta and must be used with additional caution.

*** It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, *** so you must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra attention on the road. Do not become complacent. When Full Self-Driving is enabled your vehicle will make lane changes off highway, select forks to follow your navigation route, navigate around other vehicles and objects, and make left and right turns. Use Full Self-Driving in limited BETA only if you will pay constant attention to the road, and be prepared to act immediately, especially around blind corners, crossing intersections, and in narrow driving situations.”

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Elon & Tesla release notes warn beta testers.

Beta testers need to be on high alert at all times.

When safety investigators look at accidents one of the things they look at is how much pressure & workload is on the vehicle/machine operator.

Is this (test BETA driving) really a situation that children should be added too? NO

What if driver hears child choking on food (cookie/cracker) or the child starts screaming just as vehicle is entering intersection.

Yes, of course these things can happen with a non-Tesla car but which accident will be on national & international news? The couple of times it happens with Tesla while media ignores the thousand of other incidents

And for what gain/ reward was this extra risk of adding children to the environment?
For extra risk there should be opportunity for much greater reward.

Well for Tesla there is no reward only risk.
There are maybe 2,000 testers out of a pool of over a million Tesla vehicles.
Are these specific 2,000 the only ones in 1 million that can do the beta testing?
No, they are not. So there is no reward for exactly those specific testers balancing the risk to Tesla.
So eliminating drivers that will use the beta while children in the car does not slow Tesla's ability to test FSD.

What about reward to society. Again there are plenty of testers available.
So eliminating drivers that will use the beta while children in the car does not slow get FSD out to society to reduce death & injuries including to future children passengers.


Beta testers are looking for edge/corner cases to test the Beta. so besides just the random glitch in beta software the beta testers are purposely going to put the vehicle in situation the tester thinks the software might fail in.
These are not the normal risk probabilities of a random child riding in a random car.
This is higher risk.

So the only reward is to the beta driver with children.
And what is the reward? Some fun & ego gratification.


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[firsttruck]

You and I have similar interests. One of my favorite shows is Air Disasters on the Smithsonian Channel.

I will check that out.

If you want more material you might to checkout youtube channel Mentour Pilot. Very good channel. Latest below is a very famous case.

All engines FAILED and engulfed in LIGHT! | British Airways flight 009
includes new interview with Captain Eric Moody of British Airways flight 009
Jul 9, 2021
Mentour Pilot



British Airways Flight 9
Date 24 June 1982
Summary Quadruple engine flameout due to blockage by volcanic ash
Site near Mount Galunggung, West Java, Indonesia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

 

[firsttruck]

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Beta tester Hyperchange (Gali Russel) says to safely monitor the beta need two people in front
1. driver to watch real world. Driver can not be attentive to real world & watch center screen.
2. 2nd person to monitor what the car will attempt to do next and speak to driver what car is thinking of doing.
I agree with Gali recommendation above.

Below are two examples of dangerous unexpected behavior that if human monitor driver had been distracted by children in car, driver might not have caught unexpected behavior & recovered safely.

Remember that crash tests that Tesla car gets 5-star rating is for adult passengers. The 5-star rating does not include children. The airbags in car only help the adults and those airbags WILL injury children. Adults might not have serious injury but any children in car have high probability of injury in the same severe crash.

Even if children did not distract driver, both of these examples could have resulted in accidents that could have resulted in children being injured.

Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta v9 Release Notes
**** It may do the wrong thing at the worst time ****


-----------------------------------


Example 1.

Instead of continuing to drive straight ahead, Tesla car tried to serve into concrete pillar.


** in video skip to time 17:04 - 17:36

Tesla FSD Beta V9 First Drive!
Premiered Jul 10, 2021
HyperChange (Gali Russel)



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Example 2.
At intersection, navigation says need to make left turn across three lanes of traffic, driver expects and is looking out for left turn, car has left turn signal on, car instead makes a right hand turn.

** in video skip to time 0:00 - 04:50

FSD Beta 9.0 - 2021.4.18.12 - Unprotected Left Turns Stuck in a Navigation Loop
Jul 12, 2021
Chuck Cook



Problems
1. driver probably looking wrong way because expecting left turn, driver might actually cause accident while trying to correct situation.
2. cars behind expect Tesla to make left turn but Tesla turned right.

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Air Bags: Not for Children
Stanford Medicine - Stanford University
https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=air-bags-and-kids-1-986

Air Bags: Not for Children
Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia
https://www.chop.edu/pages/air-bags

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[SHorzy]

Tesla makes the safest vehicles made today. Their software is the best and gets better continuously. To keep your children safe, wrap them in bubble wrap and keep them in their rooms. (kidding of course!). Children drive in cars. I believe they are safer in a Tesla, regardless. Within the FSD Beta realm, it should be the parents decision. Depends on roads, traffic and many other factors including weather etc. FSD is one more item to consider for sure. That said, I have always taken my kids even when roads had 6” of snow on them. Drive safely with proper maintenance and tires and no problem.

as for some of the snarky responses- not needed here. chill and be calm waiting for your CT.

 

[firsttruck]

The difference in lethality between an airplane and a car should be rather abundantly clear.

-Crissa

Yes, of course. Not arguing otherwise.

That extra lethality between of airplane actual makes my point more salient.

training in plane
Easily could be severe consequences if student makes critical mistake.
student & instructor as co-pilot

dual controls or shared central controls for all important controls & instruments

Despite the extra lethality & extra attention by the pilots, the dual/shared/central controls there are delays (time for instructor to perceive that student is not doing proper operation + instructor reflex time ) where instructor does not prevent accident.

This (time for instructor to perceive that student is not doing proper operation + instructor reflex time ) delay is also happening when Tesla FSD mode is operating the vehicle & driver is monitoring.

The actual extra delay time about varies based on several factors
level of attention (general & specific)
type of situation
how close the objects or threats are
speeds of objects or threats

It is physics. You might be able to minimize the delay but there WILL BE an extra delay compared to if the driver just drove the car directly (without using FSD mode).

 

[Crissa]

I don't think there would be a delay compared to the average driver, though, let alone the average driver on cruise control.

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

--------------------------------


** in video skip to time 4:45

Tesla FSD Beta V9 Seattle Monorail Test
2021 July 15
HyperChange



--------------------------------

A couple of days ago it happened at night.

Now here even in clear daylight, FSD tries to turn car head-on into huge pillars/columns.

Not a thin pole.

Before the excuse was noisy signals from radar.

How can system based on high-res cameras miss huge concrete pillars/columns???

Is every concrete pillar/column in the world a individual edge/ corner case ???

There is no right to test BETA software.

Children should not be in a car that is in FSD BETA mode!!!

--------------------------------

Elon Musk
@elonmusk
8:18 PM · Jul 8, 2021·Twitter for iPhone

Running preproduction software is both work & fun.
....
Beta 9 addresses most known issues "from Beta 8", but there will be unknown issues, so please be paranoid.
....

--------------------------------

Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta v9 Release Notes

Tesla didn’t go into many details about the improvements to the driving system in the release notes.

Instead, the automaker mainly reiterated important warnings regarding the use of the feature:

“Full Self-Driving is in early limited access Beta and must be used with additional caution.

*** It may do the wrong thing at the worst time, *** so you must always keep your hands on the wheel and pay extra attention on the road. Do not become complacent. When Full Self-Driving is enabled your vehicle will make lane changes off highway, select forks to follow your navigation route, navigate around other vehicles and objects, and make left and right turns. Use Full Self-Driving in limited BETA only if you will pay constant attention to the road, and be prepared to act immediately, especially around blind corners, crossing intersections, and in narrow driving situations.”

--------------------------------

 

[Crissa]

Because the pillars look like pavement. It's a super edge case, but definitely something it needs to know. The 'you can cross these gore spaces' blocks are a mess, too. The poster of the video points that out later in the video.

FSD also tries to violate navigation with an illegal left turn earlier in the video, too. Navigation says 'go right' and FSD decides to go left for some reason.

Elon said to the Beta testers, 'be paranoid'.

-Crissa

 

[SHorzy]

I had the pleasure of a fun ride in a M3 last weekend. The navigate on autopilot was so cool! I thought it was doing incredible but found it odd that it suggested a U turn at a 3 lane controlled intersection. Is that legal anywhere?

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