How many are buying CT that DONT actually NEED a truck?

[HaulingAss]

I like the seafoam green and the white roof! Does that mean you also know how to drive a stick?

Oh, please! I hope that's not supposed to be some kind of difficult rite of passage or something. Anyone who has ridden a motorcycle knows how to shift. It's a very simple concept to pickup and learn if one ever needed to drive or ride a vehicle with a manual transmission. Every car and motorcycle I ever owned except for one was a manual transmission until just a few years ago.

It's kind of like asking if someone knows how to load a gun. Either you've done it or not, no big deal and not something you can't learn in 10 minutes if needed.

Ideally, you don't need to shift. The only reason I owned so many manual transmissions is they made more efficient use of the engines power (back in the day). That just meant your car could accelerate faster and return better MPG. The story has equalized now or even reversed slightly. And EV's don't require shifting. Even the Porche Taycan EV with it's two speed transmission is automatic and even if you choose to shift it manually, there's no clutch to operate.

I just roll my eyes when people say they need a manual transmission because they are so fun to shift. I love making my own ice cream but I don't require a manual crank machine to really enjoy it!

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[SoCalSteve]

I just roll my eyes when people say they need a manual transmission because they are so fun to shift. I love making my own ice cream but I don't require a manual crank machine to really enjoy it!

Lol. Great statement. So far I have yet to drive an automatic (even with paddle shifters) that is more enjoyable than a manual, but maybe that's just personal preference or lack of driving the right vehicles.

Knowing how to drive a stick isn't a rite of passage, but in an age where everything is electronic it is becoming a rarity. It typically means you chose to learn the skill and means you probably think about vehicles as more than just a method of getting from point a to point b. Plus hopefully it was a great experience! I taught myself to drive a manual and to drive a motorcycle and you are right it isn't difficult and it one can learn in a few minutes. I also know people that have spent hours trying to learn and can't grasp the sequencing.

 

[Crissa]

I like the seafoam green and the white roof! Does that mean you also know how to drive a stick?

I drive nothing else ^-^

And he didn't, either, come to think of it. Well, his last truck was automatic because they stopped making the stick and he had an automatic Ranchero for a year (and I had a Nova!) but neither of us chose those cars, they were given. My mom didn't switch, either, until they stopped making manual Caravans, she had their last manual model.

It's not hard, and I still can beat the automatic fuel-efficiency in my Mazda (even though by calculation the automatic should be more efficient). But it's also an effort to learn or enjoy.

-Crissa

 

[SoCalSteve]

I drive nothing else ^-^

And he didn't, either, come to think of it. Well, his last truck was automatic because they stopped making the stick and he had an automatic Ranchero for a year (and I had a Nova!) but neither of us chose those cars, they were given. My mom didn't switch, either, until they stopped making manual Caravans, she had their last manual model.

It's not hard, and I still can beat the automatic fuel-efficiency in my Mazda (even though by calculation the automatic should be more efficient). But it's also an effort to learn or enjoy.

-Crissa

I had no idea caravans were ever anything but automatic! I hear that automatics are way more efficient than manual so it's cool to hear that it isn't the case. Surely Tesla has changed that.

 

[HaulingAss]

I had no idea caravans were ever anything but automatic! I hear that automatics are way more efficient than manual so it's cool to hear that it isn't the case. Surely Tesla has changed that.

Tesla doesn't make any cars with automatics.

The primary reason I chose manual transmissions back in the day was because the automatics were all "slushboxes" which means they lacked the feel of direct coupling and got terrible MPG. They also tended to only have three gear ratios. My friend has a 1967 convertible Camaro with a 2-speed powerglide. Ugh! Now, if you find yourself handicapped with an ICE engine and it's need to be in the proper rpm range for each situation, a modern automatic is generally an asset, not a liability. Modern automatics on enthusiast cars now have more gear ratios than manuals and can affect shifts much more quickly and efficiently giving the edge over cars with the best manual transmission operated by a skilled driver.

Of course EV's with a single speed reduction gear, forward and backward, will become ubiquitous far more quickly than most people realize. In a few short years no sane person will be arguing that gas cars with manual transmissions are better. They will be relics from the past that are not much more than historical curiosities collected by people wishing to preserve the past.

 

[Akgolf]

My daughters first words were spoken while I was teaching my wife how to drive using a stick. I was assigned to Edwards AFB in 1974. Lots of empty roads in the desert for teaching back then.

I demonstrated how to slowly let the clutch out and start accelerating, then we switched seats. Of course she popped the clutch. Tried a few times and she kept letting it out to quickly. So we switched seats and I demonstrated that without using the accelerator you could slowly let out the clutch and it was a smoother ride. We switched seats again and as my wife started up the car we heard from the back seat. No, no, no.

I think I had 1969 Chevy Chevelle SS 396 with Cowl Induction at the time.

 

[OCS12]

Lol. Great statement. So far I have yet to drive an automatic (even with paddle shifters) that is more enjoyable than a manual, but maybe that's just personal preference or lack of driving the right vehicles.

Knowing how to drive a stick isn't a rite of passage, but in an age where everything is electronic it is becoming a rarity. It typically means you chose to learn the skill and means you probably think about vehicles as more than just a method of getting from point a to point b. Plus hopefully it was a great experience! I taught myself to drive a manual and to drive a motorcycle and you are right it isn't difficult and it one can learn in a few minutes. I also know people that have spent hours trying to learn and can't grasp the sequencing.

Perfectly well said. It’ll be a weird day when I know longer have one of these to play with. I still occasionally catch myself stomping at air with my left foot when I drive my truck.

 

[SoCalSteve]

Perfectly well said. It’ll be a weird day when I know longer have one of these to play with. I still occasionally catch myself stomping at air with my left foot when I drive my truck.

Thanks mate. I also find myself pressing the clutch in automatic cars. It is like walking up a step that doesn't exist. I find cars without shifters are fine, unless they are sporty. Then my right-hand feels as awkward as a bottom arm when trying to cuddle with a new girlfriend.

In a few short years no sane person will be arguing that gas cars with manual transmissions are better. They will be relics from the past that are not much more than historical curiosities collected by people wishing to preserve the past.

I can only find two arguments against that and the first one isn't even very solid. The auditory experience is something petrol heads just can't currently find in an EV unless they want to cough up $2M for an Evija (the 39 audio tracks tuned in LA for Lotus), but I'm sure customizations will change that over the next few years. The other argument is control. Skill vs skill, on a dragstrip a corvette will absolutely smash a Lotus. On a track, the Lotus can brake later, accelerate sooner, and can easily pass on the outside. This makes such a difference a Lotus usually comes out a win. This comes down to sheer weight. An Exige comes in at just under 2000lbs where a corvette comes in at 3600lbs. When Lotus made the Tesla Roadster it only weighed about 800lbs more than a Lotus 111, had much better acceleration, but lost some of its nimbleness. The Tesla Roadster 2.0 is undoubtedly the fastest accelerating vehicle to hit the streets but at a weight of two fully loaded Lotus 111's and a price tag equal to five 111's. The Tesla again smashes the Exige in range, but is it better at handling? That's what I think a sports car is all about.

I know Teslas accelerate incredibly fast from a standstill, but I don't know how well it accelerates while rolling. Does it recover well out of a corner? Better than a Corvette? Better than an Exige? There is a decent part of me that thinks maybe the tri-motor Cybertruck can give Lotus a run for its money in sportiness.

TL;DR: In short, I hope you are right.

 

[HaulingAss]

I know Teslas accelerate incredibly fast from a standstill, but I don't know how well it accelerates while rolling. Does it recover well out of a corner? Better than a Corvette? Better than an Exige? There is a decent part of me that thinks maybe the tri-motor Cybertruck can give Lotus a run for its money in sportiness.

What do you mean ""Does it recover well out of a corner?" It's best not to get out of shape to begin with and Tesla's with their low polar moment of inertia, low center of gravity and excellent weight distribution front to rear makes them easy to drive at the limit without getting out of shape. But, yes, they also recover very well if you do manage to get them out of shape. Their very low polar moment of inertia and low center of gravity are big helpers here.

They also have amazing drive out of the corner thanks to instant and easy to modulate power. The drivetrain has much less rotational inertia which, when combined with prodigious and instant torque, brings the driver's right foot in much closer control of the tires limits of adhesion. It's like your brain can climb right between the tires and the road surface and modulate the power being transferred between the two. And without loud and distracting exhaust sounds you can actually hear the subtle interplay between the pavement and individual tires at the limits of adhesion.

I feel the electric powertrain brings me closer to the essence of driving on a curvy course, namely, managing traction and lines. By removing the highly variable and time-delayed power characteristics of a combustion engine and multi-speed transmission, the instant torque of an electric drivetrain puts the driver in closer and much more direct control of of that tenuous balance of grip between the tires and the road while the perfect weight distribution keeps the front and rear tires acting in unison.

The Cybertruck will be the sportiest truck offered by any manufacturer but it is not, of course, a sports car. The Tesla Roadster 2 will be a true sportscar. While waiting for the Roadster's public release, we will have to be content with the soon to be released Plaid Model S Tri motor. This is not a true sports car either but it does have some serious performance for a four-door sedan that makes a fine daily driver. A pre-production version has already been tested at Laguna Seca with production tires:

Watch Tesla's 1100-hp Model S Plaid trounce the Corvette C7 ZR1's Laguna Seca lap time | Hagerty Media

The Model S hits nearly 150 mph as the driver makes his way through Turn 1, with the Tesla almost silent through Turn 2’s Andretti Hairpin. The only sounds from the car are the whir of its electric motors and the chatter as the Michelins hit rumble strips. It is a remarkable smooth lap with surprisingly little drama; the car never seems to get upset or oversteer, and it only requires a bit of mid-corner correction. The driver’s skill pays off with an impressive 1:30.4 lap time, making the Model S Plaid faster than a bevy of supercars and track stars.

For comparison, the fastest production car lap time on the track is the McLaren Senna’s 1:27.62, put down by Randy Pobst. Porsche’s 918 Spyder and GT2 RS aren’t far behind, with the last Viper ACR and a McLaren 720 finishing between them. There’s also the Lamborghini Huracán Performante ahead of the Model S, but that’s about it. The 1:30.4 lap puts Tesla ahead of the Ferrari 488 GTB, the hottest C7 Corvette, the Porsche 911 GT3, and the Camaro ZL1 1LE, which have all clocked times in the low 1:30s.

I think the lap times on this curvy track with many tight corners answers your question better than any pontificating I can do. The fact is a ICE engine gets in the way of laying down truly fast lap times due to their less than ideal torque curves and the need for a multi-speed transmission to mitigate that. The only reason a few high-dollar supercars can beat the Model S Plaid is because they have grippier tires and a supercar suspension.

 

[Crissa]

Driving an EV is like always being in the right gear. Especially something with power, like a Zero or a Tesla.

Coming out of a corner, it is right there, ready for you. It goes when you tell it, slows when you tell it, and these things can be tuned to your preference (whether you want a little motor creep or none at all; heavy on the regen or light, etc).

EVs are amazing. They do what you tell them. Which has always been my preference for manual: They do what you tell them, and only what you tell them.

I do sorta wish I had more on-the-fly control over regen, but that's a small quibble comparitively.

-Crissa

 

[SoCalSteve]

What do you mean "Does it recover well out of a corner?" It's best not to get out of shape to begin with...

I don't mean losing control or traction. A car has to slow down to transfer its weight from one direction to another. The distance a car has to start braking before the apex and the distance after the apex the car can start accelerating again makes a huge difference in performance. I assume Tesla is using a professional driver to get its 90 second lap times. Casual racers clock Laguna Seca in the low 1:40's with stock tires and engines. while the plaid is cutting a considerable 10-12 seconds off the Lotus time, we are also talking about a 190-220hp car vs a 1,100hp car. I have a video of a guy running it in 95.9 seconds, running the same tires we use for daily driving modified to 350hp. It has a racing trans (final gearing is stock) and a roll cage so it's over factory weight. How does a guy with a tuned 4 cyl Toyota corolla engine (that's what the American version comes standard with) with 1/3 the HP of a tri-motor, and a slow 3-4 gear shift even come close to matching an almost fully automated, instant acceleration AWD car?

The first turn is a 180 and while the Tesla is fast, the Lotus is faster. Between turn 1 and turn 2 the Tesla not only makes up the time but beats the Lotus to the turn. This better cornering in turn 1 is noted by a 1.3g turn without loss of traction on the Lotus while the Tesla never comes close to .75g. Interestingly enough both cars hit a low of 47mph in that turn. It also doesn't hurt that the Tesla starts the lap at 130+mph and the lotus is barely creeping up on 115mph. Which is further proof that Lotus does not excel in top speed nor acceleration. I think Tesla has those markets topped.

I get your point that the car is well balanced with a low center of gravity, but the Exige is a mid-engined car which means it's almost perfectly balanced (40/60 is better than 50/50) and is a foot shorter than a Model S and still has a half-inch more ground clearance.

It's like your brain can climb right between the tires and the road surface and modulate the power being transferred between the two. And without loud and distracting exhaust sounds you can actually hear the subtle interplay between the pavement and individual tires at the limits of adhesion.

This is an exciting statement for me to hear. What I love about the Exige is that the car becomes an extension of the driver. I usually wear steel-toed boots and I can still feel everything the car interacts with. I can feel the random specks of gravel at the edge of my driveway. I know exactly how much strain is on my tires. I can feel the difference in how much oil is in my engine and how much water the ethanol in my tank has absorbed (if I'm running e85 instead of gasoline). If you have even a portion of this kind of relationship with your Tesla, I'm really excited I'm getting a CT!

I'd have guessed that the Ford Lightning or by today's standards, the Raptor was as a sporty of a truck as we'd ever see. I think the CT will practically be a racecar compared to those.

When I think of how great the Plaid is and the price tag that goes with it, it's not all that far to a Roadster. Maybe I'll be able to afford one of those by the time I turn 40.

Driving an EV is like always being in the right gear. Especially something with power, like a Zero or a Tesla.

Coming out of a corner, it is right there, ready for you. It goes when you tell it, slows when you tell it, and these things can be tuned to your preference (whether you want a little motor creep or none at all; heavy on the regen or light, etc).

EVs are amazing. They do what you tell them. Which has always been my preference for manual: They do what you tell them, and only what you tell them.

I do sorta wish I had more on-the-fly control over regen, but that's a small quibble comparatively.

-Crissa

Talking about the regen. Even the Prius has a pretty nice feel when put into high regen mode (B). I think the rest of the car sucks, but at least Toyota knows how to build a solid CVT! ::cough:: Nissan ::cough:: pos ::cough::

You make a great point about on-the-fly control, but there's a learning curve to everything and always a trade-off.

 

[Kingace74]

Don't need a truck but buying CT because its cool. Originally was going to purchase the Y.

 

[Crissa]

In fact, that eagerness to accelerate puts many ICE motorcyclists on their butts when they ride a Zero. It does what you tell it, and if you spin it up, it spins up. Which means in a corner you can break the drive wheel loose super-easy.

That's not so bad with a four-wheel vehicle, but even then Tesla has tons of traction control making sure that doesn't happen.

Talking about the regen. Even the Prius has a pretty nice feel when put into high regen mode (B). I think the rest of the car sucks, but at least Toyota knows how to build a solid CVT! ::cough:: Nissan ::cough:: pos ::cough::

I really liked the Nissan CVT. It was really smooth. Too bad it didn't age well.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

I don't mean losing control or traction. A car has to slow down to transfer its weight from one direction to another. The distance a car has to start braking before the apex and the distance after the apex the car can start accelerating again makes a huge difference in performance. I assume Tesla is using a professional driver to get its 90 second lap times. Casual racers clock Laguna Seca in the low 1:40's with stock tires and engines. while the plaid is cutting a considerable 10-12 seconds off the Lotus time, we are also talking about a 190-220hp car vs a 1,100hp car. I have a video of a guy running it in 95.9 seconds, running the same tires we use for daily driving modified to 350hp. It has a racing trans (final gearing is stock) and a roll cage so it's over factory weight. How does a guy with a tuned 4 cyl Toyota corolla engine (that's what the American version comes standard with) with 1/3 the HP of a tri-motor, and a slow 3-4 gear shift even come close to matching an almost fully automated, instant acceleration AWD car?

The first turn is a 180 and while the Tesla is fast, the Lotus is faster. Between turn 1 and turn 2 the Tesla not only makes up the time but beats the Lotus to the turn. This better cornering in turn 1 is noted by a 1.3g turn without loss of traction on the Lotus while the Tesla never comes close to .75g. Interestingly enough both cars hit a low of 47mph in that turn. It also doesn't hurt that the Tesla starts the lap at 130+mph and the lotus is barely creeping up on 115mph. Which is further proof that Lotus does not excel in top speed nor acceleration. I think Tesla has those markets topped.

I get your point that the car is well balanced with a low center of gravity, but the Exige is a mid-engined car which means it's almost perfectly balanced (40/60 is better than 50/50) and is a foot shorter than a Model S and still has a half-inch more ground clearance.

The fact that a 1100 hp Tesla 4-door sedan is "only" 10-12 seconds quicker than a mid-engined sports car making only a little over 200 hp shows how over-rated horsepower is when it comes to road-racing on a tight track like Laguna Seca.

But what really makes an impression on me is that you are comparing this:

(a 4,000 lb. family sedan with 4 doors and a large trunk and frunk that makes a good car for road-tripping or camping and gets 100 mpg equivalent)

with this:

A full-blooded sports car that you have to get out of even if you just want to change your mind. I'm 6'-04" tall and 215 lbs. and the Model S feels spacious to me (but only slightly more than a Model 3). I don't even think I could fit in a Lotus Exige. No back seat and minimal frunk/trunk space.

This makes an impression upon me because, even on a twisty track like Laguna Seca, the non-sports car leaves the sports car in the dust - it's not even close! And the Lotus Exige is famous for being able to lay down faster lap times than much more powerful sports cars. But not faster- than this 4-door sedan that gets excellent economy and is ideally suited to being a daily driver.

Of course, that doesn't make the Model S Plaid a sports car - it's not. Very few people want a true sports car because they all come with serious disadvantages that disqualify them for most people. But plenty of people can appreciate good, competent handling car with a comfortable ride, lots of useable interior space, great efficiency and mind-bending acceleration. That's what the Tesla Model S is. The fact that it can beat almost all sports cars in existence does not make it a sports car. It's not trying to be one.

This is an exciting statement for me to hear. What I love about the Exige is that the car becomes an extension of the driver. I usually wear steel-toed boots and I can still feel everything the car interacts with. I can feel the random specks of gravel at the edge of my driveway. I know exactly how much strain is on my tires. I can feel the difference in how much oil is in my engine and how much water the ethanol in my tank has absorbed (if I'm running e85 instead of gasoline). If you have even a portion of this kind of relationship with your Tesla, I'm really excited I'm getting a CT!

I have to admit, I have no idea how much water my battery has absorbed!

All joking aside, the Model 3 is not a true sports car either - not because it's not "good enough" to be considered one, but because that's not what most people want in a car. That said, it's sportier than most cars out there and will beat many sports cars on a track like Laguna Seca. I do appreciate it's sporty nature since it comes without many of the compromises that sports cars must make. It's actually pretty close to being a sports car but that's not what Tesla was shooting for. They gave it plenty of headroom, even for my tall frame, plenty of shoulder room for two very broad-shouldered adults sitting side/side, a large trunk (and frunk) and 4-doors. It's also the safest car ever built. No exceptions.

I'd have guessed that the Ford Lightning or by today's standards, the Raptor was as a sporty of a truck as we'd ever see. I think the CT will practically be a racecar compared to those.

True, but that's not saying much. Even a Raptor is a world apart from being a sports car. The Cybertruck will, IMO, be mind-bendingly good at ripping up corners. The tires will be the weak link. I can already hear the cries now; "Tesla shouldn't have made a truck this sporty without ensuring there were suitably sporty tires available for it.", LOL!

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