Is A Toyota SUV "Greener" Than A Tesla? Engineering Explained guy says Yes. I think in real world answer is NO.

firsttruck

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Is A Toyota SUV "Greener" Than A Tesla?
Mar 10, 2021
Engineering Explained

Engineering Explained guy is using max theoretical numbers CO2 & pollution numbers when PHEV varies widely based on owner/driver charging behavior (like many almost never charge so use gas all the time).

Engineering Explained guy is also not counting increased maintenance PHEVs (plug in hybrids) have by have two systems.

RAV4 Prime has NO DC Fast charging capability so probably use 100% gas for all long distance trips (over 42 miles).


--------------------


Even if you have fully charged battery and never want to use ICE it still will come on in many situations.

From Toyota RAV4 Prime manual

Gasoline engine operation in EV mode or AUTO EV/HV mode
Even if there is a sufficient amount of electricity remaining in the hybrid battery (traction battery) and EV driving range is being displayed on the multi-information display, EV driving (driving using only the electric motor) may be canceled and both gasoline engine and electric motor are used depending on the situation (EV driving will be returned to automatically after EV driving becomes possible again).

EV driving may be canceled automatically in the following circumstances*1:
● When vehicle speed is more than approximately 84 mph (135 km/h).
● When power is needed temporarily, for example when the accelerator pedalis depressed firmly or when accelerating suddenly.*2
● When the temperature of the hybrid system is high.
The vehicle has been left in the sun, driven on a hill, driven at high speeds,etc.
● When the temperature of the hybrid system is low.
● When the heater is switched on when the outside temperature is below about 14°F (-10°C).
● When the windshield defogger switch is pressed.
● When the system determines that the gasoline engine needs to be started.

*1: The gasoline engine may also operate in circumstances other than those listed above, depending on conditions.
*2: When driving in AUTO EV/HV mode. Even in EV mode, the gasoline engine may start, depending on the condition of the hybrid battery (traction battery).


Toyota 2021 RAV4 Prime Owners Manual (OM42C07U)
https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM42C07U/pdf/OM42C07U.pdf


--------------------


The following are the major pollutants from motor vehicles:
Particulate matter (PM). One type of particulate matter is the soot seen in vehicle exhaust. ...
Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs)
Nitrogen oxides (NOx)
Carbon monoxide (CO)
Sulfur dioxide (SO2)
Greenhouse gases (CO2 )
from Union of Concerned Scientists
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cars-trucks-buses-and-air-pollution


Which cars are most likely to have catalytic converter stolen?
According to Admiral, hybrid cars are targeted the most because their catalytic converters contain a higher concentration of precious metals (platinum, palladium or rhodium) and are generally less corroded. The most susceptible brands to catalytic converter theft are the Honda, Toyota hybrids. Repair costs $5,000. Your insurance company MIGHT help if you have Comprehensive coverage minus your deductible. If your car came with a catalytic converter you're looking at fines of up to $10,000 for removing it. ... Removing the catalytic converter is illegal.
2020 Nov



Tesla Model Y LR AWD $49,000 (est 2021 USA sales 300,000 )
Toyota RAV 4 Prime $38,000 MSRP + extra dealer markup $5,000? (est USA sales 12,000)

Tesla Model Y 5 seat: storage (frunk & seats down) 68 cft, towing 3,500 lbs
Toyota RAV4 Prime 5: seat storage (seats down) 63 cft, towing 2,500 lbs


Engineering Explained for Tesla used generic CO2 numbers for vehicle construction & usage instead of Tesla #.
This is really unfair since generic number does not take into account ICE system & reality that many owners/drivers of PHEVS use mostly use ICE mode & do not charge vehicles.


maintenance costs (oil change even if not using ICE)
replace oil every 10 months even if ICE rarely used.
Toyota of Santa Barbara
https://www.toyotaofsantabarbara.co...toyota-of-santa-barbara/185,0,93454,63,10370/


$35 engine air filter element that requires changing at 30,000-mile intervals

Much more parts in PHEVs. More items that can break
engine mechanical
transmission mechanical
cooling
exhaust
air pollution (sensors, catalytic converter)


CO2 & energy to product ICE system (engine, transmission, exhaust, air pollution control, catalytic converter)


It is unfair to compare RAV4 Prime used EV mode only to Tesla model Y.
RAV4 Prime used EV mode only should be compared to BEV with smaller battery


Studies show a lot of plugin hybrids are mostly used in ICE mode (never charged). This is especially true for busineess & rental users.


What is total effect for 2021 if
Toyota only sell 12,000 RAV4 Prime plug-in hybird while Tesla sell 300,000 Model Y.



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firsttruck

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Report: Plug-in hybrids are polluting more than claimed
By Stephen Edelstein
December 9, 2020
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130586_report-plug-in-hybrids-are-polluting-more-than-claimed


Real-world usage of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles: Fuel consumption, electric driving, and CO2 emissions
PHEV fuel consumption and tail-pipe CO2 emissions in real-world driving, on average, are approximately two to four times higher than type-approval values. The deviation from New European Drive Cycle (NEDC) type-approval values spans much larger ranges than for conventional vehicles.
White paper
Published: 2020.09.27
By Patrick Plötz, Cornelius Moll, and Yaoming Li (Fraunhofer ISI); Georg Bieker, Peter Mock
https://theicct.org/publications/phev-real-world-usage-sept2020


Government-subsidised plug-in cars may NEVER have been charged
By Joe Miller
BBC Business Correspondent
Published 9 November 2018
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46152853


Cost of not plugging in a PHEV revealed
29/10/2019
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2019/10/29/cost-of-not-plugging-in-a-phev-revealed
 

Dids

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This is the same guy who thinks a gas f150 will be a better tow vehicle than the Cybertruck.
 

OCS12

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I remember way back when my Jeep Wrangler was rated as the greenest vehicle on the planet. Prius owners’ heads nearly exploded. It was almost a lost cause trying to explain to them that the construction and maintenance of a vehicle factored in, and not just how much gas you burned. Things have obviously come a long way since then, and even with the nastiness of the nickel mines, I’m pretty sure BEV’s have launched well ahead.
 

ldjessee

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Funny, when I watched that video, that is not the conclusion I came too nor that I thought he came too.

I thought he pointed out the very limited set of conditions it would take for the Rav4 Plugin to cause less CO2 than the Tesla Model Y he was stacking it up against. He showed exactly when those numbers would flip to be in favor for the Model Y.

And as for his tow vehicle comparison, it was before Battery Day AND even back then he said if the battery technology got better, then it could easily go the other way. He also talked about the differences between long distance and going up hill being the things that would make hauling less convenient and take more time than a gas F150.

I have no problems with his videos in that regard. He lets the math do the talking.
 

TheLastStarfighter

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I'm not going to bother with the video, but a significant factor is the manufacture location. If the Toyota is made in Japan and shipped to the US, it takes a few years to make up the emissions of the transport ship that brought it here. No ocean shipping for the Tesla, and its pieces also is largely made on-site so many components aren't even shipped around the world. It's very difficult for any foreign-made car to be more eco-friendly than a Tesla in the US, even a plug-in hybrid. You really have to stretch to an extreme scenario to make it possible, and at that level... what's the point? You're splitting hairs over eco pennies, not dollars.
 

Ehninger1212

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I really enjoy my PHEV.. but I wish I had the full BEV. Just wasn't in the budget 😞
 

Crissa

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I remember way back when my Jeep Wrangler was rated...
Alas, that study was deeply flawed, depending upon not counting well to wheel emissions while counting mine to manufacture of the Prius. It had recycling for the steel in the Jeep, but none for the aluminum in the Prius. It was pure accounting garbage. 😞

I'm not going to bother with the video.
Too bad, it was good. He didn't account for shipping, but it's not large, compared to the fuel used in a car's operation. ^-^

-Crissa
 

OCS12

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Actually, that was probably the most accurate report out there. They HATED having to be honest and call it as it was, but they weren’t wrong. The biggest X factor was that the Jeep community are a bunch of cannibals. It’s rare to find a Jeep in the junkyard with a working part. We recycle better than anyone else!
The next reason was that the Wrangler used simple, straight lines for the body panels, which made for super cheap manufacturing. Take a guess who else thought that was a good idea?
 

FullyGrounded

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--------------------------

Is A Toyota SUV "Greener" Than A Tesla?
Mar 10, 2021
Engineering Explained

Engineering Explained guy is using max theoretical numbers CO2 & pollution numbers when PHEV varies widely based on owner/driver charging behavior (like many almost never charge so use gas all the time).

Engineering Explained guy is also not counting increased maintenance PHEVs (plug in hybrids) have by have two systems.

RAV4 Prime has NO DC Fast charging capability so probably use 100% gas for all long distance trips (over 42 miles).


--------------------


Even if you have fully charged battery and never want to use ICE it still will come on in many situations.

From Toyota RAV4 Prime manual

Gasoline engine operation in EV mode or AUTO EV/HV mode
Even if there is a sufficient amount of electricity remaining in the hybrid battery (traction battery) and EV driving range is being displayed on the multi-information display, EV driving (driving using only the electric motor) may be canceled and both gasoline engine and electric motor are used depending on the situation (EV driving will be returned to automatically after EV driving becomes possible again).

EV driving may be canceled automatically in the following circumstances*1:
● When vehicle speed is more than approximately 84 mph (135 km/h).
● When power is needed temporarily, for example when the accelerator pedalis depressed firmly or when accelerating suddenly.*2
● When the temperature of the hybrid system is high.
The vehicle has been left in the sun, driven on a hill, driven at high speeds,etc.
● When the temperature of the hybrid system is low.
● When the heater is switched on when the outside temperature is below about 14°F (-10°C).
● When the windshield defogger switch is pressed.
● When the system determines that the gasoline engine needs to be started.

*1: The gasoline engine may also operate in circumstances other than those listed above, depending on conditions.
*2: When driving in AUTO EV/HV mode. Even in EV mode, the gasoline engine may start, depending on the condition of the hybrid battery (traction battery).


Toyota 2021 RAV4 Prime Owners Manual (OM42C07U)
https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM42C07U/pdf/OM42C07U.pdf


--------------------


The following are the major pollutants from motor vehicles:
Particulate matter (PM). One type of particulate matter is the soot seen in vehicle exhaust. ...
Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs)
Nitrogen oxides (NOx)
Carbon monoxide (CO)
Sulfur dioxide (SO2)
Greenhouse gases (CO2 )
from Union of Concerned Scientists
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/cars-trucks-buses-and-air-pollution


Which cars are most likely to have catalytic converter stolen?
According to Admiral, hybrid cars are targeted the most because their catalytic converters contain a higher concentration of precious metals (platinum, palladium or rhodium) and are generally less corroded. The most susceptible brands to catalytic converter theft are the Honda, Toyota hybrids. Repair costs $5,000. Your insurance company MIGHT help if you have Comprehensive coverage minus your deductible. If your car came with a catalytic converter you're looking at fines of up to $10,000 for removing it. ... Removing the catalytic converter is illegal.
2020 Nov



Tesla Model Y LR AWD $49,000 (est 2021 USA sales 300,000 )
Toyota RAV 4 Prime $38,000 MSRP + extra dealer markup $5,000? (est USA sales 12,000)

Tesla Model Y 5 seat: storage (frunk & seats down) 68 cft, towing 3,500 lbs
Toyota RAV4 Prime 5: seat storage (seats down) 63 cft, towing 2,500 lbs


Engineering Explained for Tesla used generic CO2 numbers for vehicle construction & usage instead of Tesla #.
This is really unfair since generic number does not take into account ICE system & reality that many owners/drivers of PHEVS use mostly use ICE mode & do not charge vehicles.


maintenance costs (oil change even if not using ICE)
replace oil every 10 months even if ICE rarely used.
Toyota of Santa Barbara
https://www.toyotaofsantabarbara.co...toyota-of-santa-barbara/185,0,93454,63,10370/


$35 engine air filter element that requires changing at 30,000-mile intervals

Much more parts in PHEVs. More items that can break
engine mechanical
transmission mechanical
cooling
exhaust
air pollution (sensors, catalytic converter)


CO2 & energy to product ICE system (engine, transmission, exhaust, air pollution control, catalytic converter)


It is unfair to compare RAV4 Prime used EV mode only to Tesla model Y.
RAV4 Prime used EV mode only should be compared to BEV with smaller battery


Studies show a lot of plugin hybrids are mostly used in ICE mode (never charged). This is especially true for busineess & rental users.


What is total effect for 2021 if
Toyota only sell 12,000 RAV4 Prime plug-in hybird while Tesla sell 300,000 Model Y.



--------------------------
This is more of the BS Hybrids trying to muddy the water of new EVs, while those late comers ready their own EVs that will suddenly be SO MUCH BETTER than anything already out - copying and making excuses. They are pros at distraction and illusion. Don't be fooled any longer. peace
 
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