Musk says 4680 Pack in the Model Y is “Next Level”

[Ogre]

Sandy Munro tears apart the new Model S battery pack and calls it “an Engineering Masterpiece”.

Musk replies and suggests the structural pack in the Model Y is “Next Level”.

This suggests lots of good things for the Cybertruck battery pack.




Here’s a peak at what the tapering curve on the Model S looks like. The big flat section suggests it can charge faster than 250 kW up until it gets to 30%. Likely we’ll see that that rumored 324 kW charge speed for at least the first 10-20% SOC.

If the 4680 packs are going to be “Next Level” from here, they are going to be pretty amazing.

Sponsored

 

[Klaxon]

Looks like I can save lots of energy while waiting for my CT

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

But how do we get one of those Model Ys?

 

[Dirt Worker]

I wonder what the range is when using best charging practices 20%-80%. 300 I assume. This puts it in line with the average ICE pickups before re-fueling in real numbers. Understandably, a full charge cycle can be done but not without reducing battery life albeit negligible once in a while.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

There are other advantages than range. I saw a Reddit thread where the participants were of the belief that Tesla would not introduce a difference in range between Austin and Fremont Model Ys. But charge time, percentage of charge recommended, and lifetime might change.

 

[Ogre]

There are other advantages than range. I saw a Reddit thread where the participants were of the belief that Tesla would not introduce a difference in range between Austin and Fremont Model Ys. But charge time, percentage of charge recommended, and lifetime might change.

Charging speed is what the chart I posted is referring to. The Model S Plaid charges *much* quicker than any previous Tesla. Musk’s comments make me think the new Model Y and Cybertruck will be quicker yet.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

Charging speed is what the chart I posted is referring to. The Model S Plaid charges *much* quicker than any previous Tesla. Musk’s comments make me think the new Model Y and Cybertruck will be quicker yet.

At battery day they suggested that the larger cell, tabless construction, and cell chemistry might have fewer issues with heating and electron flow, both of which could result in improved chsrging speeds and possibly longevity. I discount any chart for the Model S because they are still using the oldest cells in their repertoir. There should be nocomparison with the 4680s.

 

[Ogre]

At battery day they suggested that the larger cell, tabless construction, and cell chemistry might have fewer issues with heating and electron flow, both of which could result in improved chsrging speeds and possibly longevity. I discount any chart for the Model S because they are still using the oldest cells in their repertoir. There should be nocomparison with the 4680s.

The small cells are fine for charge speed and delivering huge amounts of power quickly. The downside to that form factor is the size and weight to power ratio.

4680 cells size works against them. The tab-less design and silicon added to the cathode will mitigate that. If they didn’t have those innovations, it’s likely it would charge slower due to poor cooling.

 

[Dids]

The small cells are fine for charge speed and delivering huge amounts of power quickly. The downside to that form factor is the size and weight to power ratio.

4680 cells size works against them. The tab-less design and silicon added to the cathode will mitigate that. If they didn’t have those innovations, it’s likely it would charge slower due to poor cooling.

Not really though.... all materials have resistance to current unless they are in superconductor realm. It is internal resistance that generates heat, heat increases resistance which generates more heat. So there are 2 ways to attack this problem. 1. Lower initial resistance or 2. Slow the increase in resistance.
Larger cells of the same chemistry and design as a smaller cell have an effective lower initial resistance or higher C for the same amount of current.
Cr=Ir/Er

 

[Albern]

There are other advantages than range. I saw a Reddit thread where the participants were of the belief that Tesla would not introduce a difference in range between Austin and Fremont Model Ys. But charge time, percentage of charge recommended, and lifetime might change.

I've been seeing that theory as a way to balance out 4680 Ys vs. 2070 Ys due to the Osborne Effect and I'm having a hard time believing that Tesla would sandbag 4680 Ys for the sake of it. Someone even suggested that to make the packs equal in capacity while maintaining the function of a structural pack, some 4680s could be filled with silicone (or some other material to mimic it's density and structural performance characteristics).

In any case, throttling a product back just doesn't seem to align with Tesla's ethos.

Some ideas I have include:
- running both 4680 and 2170 until ramp at Fremont hits a critical mass to switch over
- Keeping Model 3 dedicated to 2170 and do a hard cut over to 4680 for Y; maybe dedicate 2170 to fleet sales (e.g. Hertz and others).
- Make Austin Y a 3rd variant initially with better specs for a bit more money

Alternatively, Limiting Factor proposed an interesting idea in one of his Battery Series videos. He stated that all of the 4680 benefits listed at Battery Day won't come to fruition for the first few years of production (for both Tesla and suppliers making 4680), such that initial Austin Ys won't have the significant performance gains tauted by the new cell format. He estimated several years into 4680 production that the spec targets would be reached.

As such, 4680 Ys would initially only have the advantages of lighter weight and having better passive crash mitigation performance characteristics.

 

[Crissa]

Right, Jordan Giesige's The Limiting Factor pointed out that Tesla had multiple tools to employ here.

There are multiple things in chemistry which could make the cells more resilient and tolerate charging better, and that Tesla was already doing or progressing down those paths. They could also make the battery packs slimmer, with less waste mass with its insulation value, which makes the entire pack easier to heat and cool. And this can all be done before we get to the 4680.

The larger size works against the cell in two ways: More difficult to shed heat, and higher internal resistance. But consequently, the 'tabless' design makes both of those better. According to the charts at battery day, the larger size plus the tabless design would be initially a wash. One would counter-act the other's advantage.

The primary advantage of the 4680 is that theoretically it will be the fastest to build per watt-hour. The secondary is that it allows a structural cell battery pack, which reduces weight and complexity.

The real star is the chemistry which Tesla has been footing the bill to experiment with. And that will show up in things like the Model S with its easiest-to-make cells first.

-Crissa

 

[GnarlyDudeLive]

I've been seeing that theory as a way to balance out 4680 Ys vs. 2070 Ys due to the Osborne Effect and I'm having a hard time believing that Tesla would sandbag 4680 Ys for the sake of it. Someone even suggested that to make the packs equal in capacity while maintaining the function of a structural pack, some 4680s could be filled with silicone (or some other material to mimic it's density and structural performance characteristics).

I wouldn't put it past Tesla to keep parity by software throttling the 4860 Y's performance for a while to prevent the Osborne Effect and once all Y's (or most) being produced contain the new pack design that then they offer a OTA performance update via a cost for pre-existing owners. At this point in time the new Y's would then come with this as standard. Purely my speculation of a potential outcome. I could even see a midpoint performance update that would be possible free but not unlock the full potential.

 

[Albern]

Right, Jordan Giesige's The Limiting Factor pointed out that Tesla had multiple tools to employ here.

There are multiple things in chemistry which could make the cells more resilient and tolerate charging better, and that Tesla was already doing or progressing down those paths. They could also make the battery packs slimmer, with less waste mass with its insulation value, which makes the entire pack easier to heat and cool. And this can all be done before we get to the 4680.

The larger size works against the cell in two ways: More difficult to shed heat, and higher internal resistance. But consequently, the 'tabless' design makes both of those better. According to the charts at battery day, the larger size plus the tabless design would be initially a wash. One would counter-act the other's advantage.

The primary advantage of the 4680 is that theoretically it will be the fastest to build per watt-hour. The secondary is that it allows a structural cell battery pack, which reduces weight and complexity.

The real star is the chemistry which Tesla has been footing the bill to experiment with. And that will show up in things like the Model S with its easiest-to-make cells first.

-Crissa

Yes!!! Glad you have a much better memory than I do.

 

[Albern]

I wouldn't put it past Tesla to keep parity by software throttling the 4860 Y's performance for a while to prevent the Osborne Effect and once all Y's (or most) being produced contain the new pack design that then they offer a OTA performance update via a cost for pre-existing owners. At this point in time the new Y's would then come with this as standard. Purely my speculation of a potential outcome. I could even see a midpoint performance update that would be possible free but not unlock the full potential.

A much more palatable solution for sure and beats the heck out of filling empty cells with goop. I can't imagine Tesla dedicating resources just to do that.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

Call me Osborne but I'd still prefer my Model Y to come out of Austin. It seems unlikely since they gave me an EDD of mid to late March but that would be my preference. If they change the EDD or otherwise offer order holders a choice then maybe I have a shot. I like the Model Ys as they are so no complaints. No matter what, the CT will have the best batteries available when they are finally produced. Probably the best of everything, by far, if history repeats itself.

Sponsored