Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view

firsttruck

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Need headlight/taillight side cameras -
Intersection obstructions like fences/walls/shrubs/trees/parked cars, block FSD B-pillar side camera views. When view obstructed vehicle can not see cross traffic without creeping dangerously far into intersection. This is most common when view obstructed and high-speed vehicles are approaching from side. This situation exists whether you making left turn across traffic or right turn.

Full 360 degree view is not actually possible if there are objects blocking the cameras views.

This problem might be more common in city/suburban driving on East coast, Midwest, South. In Arizona and California the cities were designed more open with greater distance setbacks for buildings & fence/walls from roads. This might be one reason Waymo really only implemented public FSD rides in Chandler, AZ area.


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The Great Camera Debate - FSDBeta 9.2 - Watch at your own risk
**** only the left channel audio is working on this video ****
Aug 26, 2021
Chuck Cook



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comments from video

Some people even forgetting one of Elon's favorite maxims -
"Physics is the law, everything else is a recommendation" with respect to how reflected light travels into human eyes or camera lens.


Tim and Dot Osborne
Great channel with unbiased information on the progress toward FSD. I don"t believe that full self deriving, as would be needed for a Robo Taxi, is possible without cameras mounted somewhere near the front of the car looking to the right and left. Other wise, in the case of a BLIND left or right turn the car must "creep" out into oncoming traffic before before the "B" pillar camera can see oncoming traffic. Completely unacceptable!!! This has to change and it cannot be fixed with software. This is much needed and the sooner the better.


Cédric Pomerleau
Honestly that’s what I think too. Add some cameras in the front bumper (pointing at the sides) and the car could see incredibly well compared to a human driver. And the lack of reverse traffic alert wouldn’t be an issue as you could park backward and those cameras will see way better than the driver.
I’m making that statement considering that humans creeping forward already put themselves in dangerous situations while moving their head forward. Imagine with a view stuck at the b pillars… I honestly think that with cameras further forward, we could have amazing FSD by the end of next year.


Eric Elfner
As a Uber/Lyft driver, I experience a wide variety of roads. Each time I need to lean forward for visibility, I think B-pillar is completely wrong for side view camera. Great content as usual. Thx
Four years ago, as a new Uber driver, I re-learned how difficult driving can be. You need to drive on unfamiliar roads, needing to get somewhere specific, with questionable navigation help, and an App and a passenger watching over your shoulder. You quickly realize how much of the driving experience you take for granted. I remember reading somewhere that less than 10% of Uber drivers stick with it for more than a year.


Chuck Cook
the cameras you are referring to, cannot see to the 90 degree left position. The B-Pillar has this angle but is positioned behind the drivers head, when on the headrest.


Chuck Cook
Center forward facing camera can only see 60 degrees to the left of center. its not about the gap, because in a desert with no obstructions the car can see 360 degrees. The issue with the camera position is with obstructed views to the left (in the US). Think of when you drive and have to lean forward as far as you can to see if it is safe to proceed. The B Pillar cannot lean forward. That is the issue I present.


Marius Meyer
Hi Chuck. I'm with you on the improvement of the cameras. My opinion is that they (Tesla) can add a side looking camera in the top corner of the front lights or somewhere in the light unit where it will be a benefit for spotting oncoming traffic at intersections.


Nikola Malešević
The problem is that it will nearly impossible for the car to get to the human level with the current setup. Chuck clearly demonstrates this in one of his previous videos where the car would need to creep deep into the lane in order to properly see incoming traffic in that lane. This happened in several minor to high speed major intersections with reduced visibility due to forestry or buildings close to the roads.
There's just no way around that unless cameras are moved forward. I have to try this myself - I think I will try to do some driving keeping my head stuck to the seat, just to experience how Tesla sees the world.


---------------------------------
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Crissa

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Tesla doesn't think so, since the side cameras have the same view that human drivers do. They're also dealing with limitations in their ability to process images - they already have a wider field of view of all their competitors with actually products on the street.

Though... I think it's a good point, if Tesla wants to be safer that humans, they will need corner cameras eventually.

What we're seeing here isn't so much a limitation of the technology, but edge cases that we just blame humans being bad when in fact... Well, our infrastructure is bad. But few people want to blame the blind corners when they can just blame the drivers for having the bad luck.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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Example of exiting an alley. In this city section there looks to be several alley exits with building wall blocking view, very narrow sidewalks and cross street having narrow lanes too. No space for B-pillar creep. Almost complete obstruction to view of B-pillar camera. Need cameras at corners of vehicle.

FSD could not see oncoming vehicle. To be order magnitude better than human in current cars need cameras at corners of vehicle.

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Tesla FSD Beta 10.6.1 - Two Near Misses - Blind Turn Test
Dec 13, 2021
Rocco Speranza

---

 

Crissa

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Again, if a car hits you while you're looking around the corner, it's that car's fault, not you for looking.

That's not a b-pillar issue. That intersection is wrong.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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Again, if a car hits you while you're looking around the corner, it's that car's fault, not you for looking.

That's not a b-pillar issue. That intersection is wrong.

-Crissa
"That intersection is wrong" ???

I do not understand this reply. That intersection exists and on the video I can see another alley exit exactly like the one the FSD tester is in that same block.

Tens of thousands or maybe millions of similar intersections exist.

What are you saying with "That intersection is wrong" ???
 


Crissa

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That an intersection exists doesn't mean it should exist. Having a full speed lane not 3' from an alley entrance is just begging for a crash.

It's not an FSD limitation - that intersection should not exist. Whoever built it should be liable for it.

But as I said before: If you hit someone peeking out of a blind alley, it's your fault for speeding up on a blind intersection - not their fault for peeking out of it.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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Again, if a car hits you while you're looking around the corner, it's that car's fault, not you for looking.
.....
-Crissa

Sorry but some (probably most) U.S. cities/states & Canadian cities/states disagree with you.

You are only allowed to creep out so long as your creeping out does not cause an "immediate hazard" to the oncoming traffic on the cross street. If your car is out enough to block the cross road pathway that the other driver does not have enough time to recognize you are in the way, reaction time to stepping on brakes, and braking time/distance for their vehicle, then you are at fault and have 99% chance of getting the ticket & all insurance bills.

The cross traffic does not need to slow down or stop so you can creep out at all.

If you can successfully creep out without causing an " immediate hazard", and you are now partial in the drive path, and then a car that was further away approaches that car must stop.

It does not matter what was blocking your view, whether it was building wall blocking your view or tree/bushes, fence/wall, cars/trucks parked along the side of the cross street

Your creeping out must not cause an "immediate hazard" to the oncoming traffic on the cross street.

Stopping distances at different speeds
Speed Thinking + braking distance Stopping distance
30mph 9m + 14m 23m (75 feet)
40mph 12m + 24m 36m (118 feet)
https://www.theaa.com

If a car A is approaching at 30mph and is 74 feet from the alley and you creep out and Car A brakes but hits your car you are at fault.

If a car A is approaching at 40mph and is 117 feet from the alley and you creep out and Car A brakes but hits your car you are at fault.

The only reasonable option today for most drivers is to creep very very slowly ( 20 -30 sec or more). That is a very long time and may not be possible with accelerator on most cars.
But most drivers do not creep that slow and Tesla FSD sure doesn't.
Even if you do the creep ultra slow if there is a crash it will probably ruled your fault.
Most drivers do not take the time to do it safely and instead are like Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) quote: Do you feel lucky?

Cameras at the corners of the car would almost completely eliminate luck in these situations.


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2020 California Code
Vehicle Code - VEH
DIVISION 11 - RULES OF THE ROAD
CHAPTER 4 - Right-of-Way
Section 21804.
Universal Citation: CA Veh Code § 21804 (2020)
21804.
https://law.justia.com/codes/california/2020/code-veh/division-11/chapter-4/section-21804/


.....
(a) The driver of any vehicle about to enter or cross a highway from any public or private property, or from an alley, shall yield the right-of-way to all traffic, as defined in Section 620, approaching on the highway close enough to constitute an immediate hazard, and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to that traffic until he or she can proceed with reasonable safety.

(b) A driver having yielded as prescribed in subdivision (a) may proceed to enter or cross the highway, and the drivers of all other vehicles approaching on the highway shall yield the right-of-way to the vehicle entering or crossing the intersection.



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Q: I pulled out of an alley onto a residential street in California. A speeding, unlicensed driver hit me. My insurance company says I at fault because I was the one pulling out into traffic. Can I fight this?

A: Ellen Harman , Practicing attorney in Illinois focusing on workers compensation and related areas including tort defense, 3r…
2013
There are two things going on here. You may have a traffic ticket from the cops. Whether you got a ticket, the offense charged , whether you plead guilty or were found guilty by a judge/jury, will make a difference. This is connected to but different from the insurance issue. I am not a CA lawyer and don't know CA auto insurance law or CA motor vehicle codes. That being said, his being unlicensed does not appear to have any bearing on your conduct. It is akin to saying he is purple, from Mars, whatever.He might be comparatively negligent but that is is not related to whether he has a drivers license. Lots of people with licenses are comparatively negligent., If you were in Illinois, you would likely be found guilty of the traffic offense because you failed to maintain a proper lookout as you came from a lesser road ( the alley) to a busier one. The other guy would be ticketed for driving without a license, and probably without insurance.

https://www.quora.com/I-pulled-out-...one-pulling-out-into-traffic-Can-I-fight-this


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THE COMMISSION ON PEACE OFFICER STANDARDS AND TRAINING
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Revised October 1990
https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/131373NCJRS.pdf

.....
Learning Goal 9.4.0: The student will understand Vehicle Code violations that cause accident traffic collisions.

.....
9. Entry Onto Highway - Public, Private Property, Alley (21804 CVC)

a. The driver of a vehicle about to enter or cross a highway from any public or private property, or from an alley, shall yield the right-of-way to all traffic, as defined in Section 620, approaching so closely on the highway as to constitute an immediate hazard and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to such approaching vehicles until such time as the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.

b. A driver, having so yielded, if required pursuant to subdivision (a), may proceed to enter or cross the highway and the drivers of all other vehicles approaching on the highway shall then yield the right-of-way to that driver.


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Crash responsibility > Crash examples > Crash when exiting a parking lot, driveway or alley
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
https://www.icbc.com/claims/crash-r...es/Pages/exiting-parking-lots-and-alleys.aspx

Crash when exiting a parking lot, driveway or alley These accidents occur when a vehicle is exiting a parking lot, driveway or alley onto the road and collides with an approaching vehicle. In this diagram, Vehicle A is turning right onto the street to exit a parking lot when it collides with Vehicle B.

Vehicle "A" = 100% Vehicle "B" = 0% The rules of the road Drivers exiting a parking lot, driveway, lane, or alley must yield to traffic on the street. Therefore, the driver of Vehicle A would be found 100% responsible. What does it say in the Motor Vehicle Act? The applicable sections of the Motor Vehicle Act are: Section 176 Emerging from alleys

Motor Vehicle Act [RSBC 1996] CHAPTER 318 Section 176 Emerging from alleys
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96318_05#section176

Section 176 - Emerging from alleys
(1) The driver of a vehicle in a business or residence district and emerging from an alley, driveway, building or private road must stop the vehicle immediately before driving onto the sidewalk or the sidewalk area extending across an alleyway or private driveway, and must yield the right of way to a pedestrian on the sidewalk or sidewalk area.
(2) The driver of a vehicle about to enter or cross a highway from an alley, lane, driveway, building or private road must yield the right of way to traffic approaching on the highway so closely that it constitutes an immediate hazard.

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Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view F1bNQFaagAAoTfs


Tesla Cybertruck Need headlight/taillight side cams - Intersection fences/walls/shrubs/parked cars obstructions block FSD B-pillar camera view Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-6.28.16-AM-1536x855
 
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firsttruck

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More problems because of B pillar view


Tesla FSD beta 10.2 through town - B pillar view with blind turns
Oct 16, 2021
Cyber Owners


 

Crissa

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...but none of your examples disagree with my assessment.

By definition, 'creep' is slow, and it's not at all what's described in your examples. All of your examples either says:

The entering car does not stop at the sidewalk;
Hits a car in the lane with right of way;
Crosses additional lanes;
Enters without giving proper deference to clearance.

None of these apply to the creeping behavior of FSD.

See
Learning Goal 9.4.0 said:
9. Entry Onto Highway - Public, Private Property, Alley (21804 CVC)

...

b. A driver, having so yielded...
-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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...but none of your examples disagree with my assessment.

By definition, 'creep' is slow, and it's not at all what's described in your examples. All of your examples either says:

The entering car does not stop at the sidewalk;
Hits a car in the lane with right of way;
Crosses additional lanes;
Enters without giving proper deference to clearance.

None of these apply to the creeping behavior of FSD.

See


-Crissa
The reason for the example was to show that if the cross traffic driver was unlicensed & speeding, you would still probably get the ticket & your insurance company consider it your fault too.


I do not understand why you are skip point "a." in the law


-----
9. Entry Onto Highway - Public, Private Property, Alley (21804 CVC)

a. The driver of a vehicle about to enter or cross a highway from any public or private property, or from an alley, shall yield the right-of-way to all traffic, as defined in Section 620, approaching so closely on the highway as to constitute an immediate hazard and shall continue to yield the right-of-way to such approaching vehicles until such time as the driver can proceed with reasonable safety.
-----

Stopping distances at different speeds
Speed Thinking + braking distance Stopping distance
30mph 9m + 14m 23m (75 feet)
40mph 12m + 24m 36m (118 feet)
https://www.theaa.com


If a cross traffic car A is approaching at 30mph and is 74 feet from the alley and you creep out and Car A brakes but hits your car you are at fault.

If you could not see at least a minimum of 75 feet then you will not be deemed to be "proceeding with reasonable safety". You have to be able to see the 75 ft WITHOUT being a immediate hazard to the cross traffic. That means even your creeping must not create a "immediate hazard to the cross traffic". Cars that are 75ft away or less from the alley you are in are automatically in the immediate hazard zone and if your creeping causes a crash with them it will deemed your fault.

The only drivers that the law requires yielding to you are cars that are over 75ft away ( this is what "b." section of the law is saying).

If the cross traffic is traveling at 40mph, if you could not see at least a minimum of 118 feet then you will not be deemed to be "proceeding with reasonable safety".
 
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firsttruck

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Chuck Cook confirms that as a human driver he can lean forward 2 feet (his head near the A-pilar) and see what Tesla B-pilar camera can not.
He commonly puts his head that far forward if left side view is obstructed when sitting back in normal driving position.

Chuck Cook mounted camera on the Tesla headlight and a second on the B-pilar to see how much better view a headlight camera would get.

Tesla B-Pillar camera vs Headlight Camera Analysis

Tesla FSD Beta B-Pillar and Headlight Camera Analysis
With all the conversation about B-Pillar cameras today on Twitter I thought it might be a good time to update this analysis.
#Tesla #FSDBeta FSDBeta 9.1 - 2021.4.18.13
Aug 10, 2021
Chuck Cook

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Crissa

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No, I am not skipping 'a' since it doesn't apply. It only applies if you don't stop or proceed while you have view of other traffic you should be yielding for. It says so in the text you're pasting.

Your example is ridiculous - if that were true, that intersection would need a flagger - so how would that means human drovers without flaggers are safer? There are no legal lanes in the US where a car is allowed to travel at 30mph but two feet is going to cause a collision.

No, you shouldn't be putting your head 'two feet' in front of the b-pillar. This is unsafe if the airbags are triggered.

And no, unsafe intersections are still unsafe for humans.

-Crissa
 
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MiguelAznar

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Is this disagreement “Some intersections would be less dangerous with cameras on the front of the vehicle“ & “Current camera positions are as safe as current human drivers”?

Can’t both be true? I would love for my Cybertruck to be dramatically safer than any human driver because it can practically see around corners with cameras mounted at the very front of the vehicle!
 
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firsttruck

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....
No, you shouldn't be putting your head 'two feet' in front of the b-pillar. This is unsafe if the airbags are triggered.

And no, unsafe intersections are still unsafe for humans.

-Crissa
1. Not all cars have airbags in the steering wheel. ( Yes, Tesla do)

2. If by leaning forward two feet you can see the cross-traffic that the B-pillar camera can not you need to creep 2 feet less into cross-traffic so you significantly lessen chance of a collision.
 

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I can understand the FSD beta drivers (M3/Y) having camera issues but what does that have to do with the CT? We simply do not know what it’s camera situation is. Someone saw a forward camera down low and the prototype has 2 rear facing camera down low and at least 2 cameras pretty high up compared to either the M3 or MY. Obstructed views are going to happen no matter what.
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