Nio ES7 vs CT

Tinker71

Well-known member
First Name
Ray
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Threads
58
Messages
882
Reaction score
1,140
Location
Utah
Vehicles
1976 electric conversion bus
Occupation
Project Manager
Country flag
The competition is heating up. For many of us the CT will be mostly used as a rugged SUV with the ability to tow, most of the time.

This NIO offering is intriguing because it is designed to tow, supplies substantial power to the trailer, and I believe has a swappable battery up to 150Kwhr.

If true they fit 150kWhr in a space smaller than the CT with a less efficient package than the CT structural pack. Being quickly removable will come with a relative weight premium.

While I don't see battery swapping going mainstream in the USA it sure has its merits.
1.) The vehicle without the battery is only $60k Battery as a service option. vs $100k with the battery.
2.) Choose a lighter battery for in town or a heavier 150kWhr battery to tow or on trips. (More efficient and less wear on tires and roadway)
3.) The same swappable battery in a trailer or camper or boat would be awesome.
4.) Grid leveling. These big batteries could be charged slower off peak.
5.) Major damage to the battery would be a simple tow and swap. Assuming no fire. Not a major tear down of interior.

At the least this is a model X killer.


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-with-the-american-market-in-mind-191304.html

 

Sirfun

Well-known member
First Name
Joe
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Threads
30
Messages
1,486
Reaction score
2,728
Location
Oxnard, California
Vehicles
Toyota Avalon, Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, Ford E-250
Occupation
Retired Sheet Metal Worker
Country flag
Americans in mind? Nio better have a massive pile of money to build battery change out stations all across America, for that to work! That or they need other manufacturers to jump onto the battery swap train. Talk about no infrastructure. 😱
 
OP
OP
Tinker71

Tinker71

Well-known member
First Name
Ray
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Threads
58
Messages
882
Reaction score
1,140
Location
Utah
Vehicles
1976 electric conversion bus
Occupation
Project Manager
Country flag
Americans in mind? Nio better have a massive pile of money to build battery change out stations all across America, for that to work! That or they need other manufacturers to jump onto the battery swap train. Talk about no infrastructure. 😱
You can still charge them conventionally and supercharge them without any battery swap stations. The battery swap stations would be a bonus.
 

rr6013

Well-known member
First Name
Rex
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Threads
43
Messages
1,242
Reaction score
1,197
Location
Coronado Bay Panama
Website
shorttakes.substack.com
Vehicles
1997 Tahoe 2 door 4x4
Occupation
Retired software developer and heavy commercial design builder
Country flag
The NIO swappable battery future hasn’t arrived - not in USA. They just got to the swingers party too early. SwapEV fell to a chicken before the egg dilemma. With charging infrastructure in-place, SwapEV‘s able to charge and swap become a smoother solution to electrifying boats, cars, home, trailers and aero-EV’s. Whole constellations of swaps in industry sprout around swappable battery.

Tesla looked at the battery swap scheme. For all its advantages, BEV was the viable path to acceptance, uptake and growth even though BEV is financially sunk investment V2* is Tesl’s response. Tesla knew to put the charging network ahead of the vehicle, with all its eggs inside.

Tesla is in the electric lifestyle business. Swappers want to swap, Tesla will have batteries to sell to them. And Tesla vehicles will swap better, faster cheaper in more, better chargers than anywhere on the planet — someday.

After Tesla Killer swap product line.
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
86
Messages
9,599
Reaction score
15,195
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
Battery swapping is easier with batteries as cargo. But if your battery isn't cargo, then you can have more batteries.

I just don't see it catching on in any application where you want performance, as it's not really quicker than current DC quick charging.

-Crissa
 


rr6013

Well-known member
First Name
Rex
Joined
Apr 22, 2020
Threads
43
Messages
1,242
Reaction score
1,197
Location
Coronado Bay Panama
Website
shorttakes.substack.com
Vehicles
1997 Tahoe 2 door 4x4
Occupation
Retired software developer and heavy commercial design builder
Country flag
Battery swapping is easier with batteries as cargo. But if your battery isn't cargo, then you can have more batteries.

I just don't see it catching on in any application where you want performance, as it's not really quicker than current DC quick charging.

-Crissa
To your point, CargoBatteries are a real solution to range, V2* and swapping that CT will look smarter, sooner a CargoBattery is integrated into the Tesla Charging Network.

Tesla did not establish the standard charging J1772/DC plug by virtue of performance, popularity and distribution worldwide. SO CargoBattery is a risky venture if Tesla wants to be the Apple sandbox of interchangeable batteries or universal standard swap battery for all.

DOJO is going to arrive and this has to be one of its first validation runs to verify one way or no way swappable cargo battery becomes a supportable layer in Tesla architecture. WATCH for sure!
 

Sirfun

Well-known member
First Name
Joe
Joined
Dec 28, 2019
Threads
30
Messages
1,486
Reaction score
2,728
Location
Oxnard, California
Vehicles
Toyota Avalon, Chrysler Pacifica PHEV, Ford E-250
Occupation
Retired Sheet Metal Worker
Country flag
You can still charge them conventionally and supercharge them without any battery swap stations. The battery swap stations would be a bonus.
Just bringing a little reality into the discussion. Like you pointed out, "I don't see battery swapping going mainstream in the USA". So, with battery swapping not on the table, towing and all those other arguments for Nio over other vehicles, lose credibility.
 

FutureBoy

Well-known member
First Name
Reginald
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Threads
185
Messages
2,072
Reaction score
3,432
Location
Kirkland WA USA
Vehicles
Toyota Sienna
Occupation
Financial Advisor
Country flag
Battery swapping is easier with batteries as cargo. But if your battery isn't cargo, then you can have more batteries.

I just don't see it catching on in any application where you want performance, as it's not really quicker than current DC quick charging.

-Crissa
The only way it would be faster to swap vs fast charge would be to have the batteries replaced by robot. Tesla did a demo of this way back in the day.

But in order for the primary batteries to have swap be practical at an industry level, we would need all the battery packs to come in standard shapes and sizes with standardized connections, attachment points, etc. So far we can't even get a single standardized charge plug worldwide.

Now if we wanted to supplement the primary battery with an additional cargo battery, that could be just a box with a large wire connector out to a charge plug. Ideally, the connection would be to a location within the bed of a pickup or the trunk/frunk of the vehicle. The change in weight distribution might be an issue for some cars. And if the cargo battery is of any real size, there will be issues involved with getting it put in or removed since it won't be something a dude can just lift into place. I'd be all for having this kind of scheme for the CT. Perhaps even for other vehicles.
 
OP
OP
Tinker71

Tinker71

Well-known member
First Name
Ray
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Threads
58
Messages
882
Reaction score
1,140
Location
Utah
Vehicles
1976 electric conversion bus
Occupation
Project Manager
Country flag
Battery swapping is easier with batteries as cargo. But if your battery isn't cargo, then you can have more batteries.

I just don't see it catching on in any application where you want performance, as it's not really quicker than current DC quick charging.

-Crissa
I agree I don't think it will catch on in mass in the USA, but it doesn't have to. You can still level 1/2 charge any battery you have installed. You can still supercharge any battery you have installed. (Not sure the rate will be great) So you might have a battery swapping station per each 2000 Nio owners, say at the dealership and that would be fine. Maybe large travel centers as well.

I disagree about the time. If you swap a battery it will be charged to 98% plus of capacity. Supercharging currently works pretty fast up to 80% then tapers off. It still takes 10-30 minutes. The last 20% takes even longer. No doubt this will improve over time.

Without a line, Nio quotes 3 minutes, Geeley 1 minute and BYD? That is faster than pumping gas.

Wait times at peak are problematic for both supercharging and swapping stations. Nobody wants to build out the infrastructure (standby packs) for the peak weekend traffic.
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Threads
107
Messages
6,532
Reaction score
15,369
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
All of the prices are for vehicles sold in the Chinese market. Not clear what they would cost to import or if manufactured in the US, likely a lot more than quoted.

Also, not clear if/ when they will be available outside of china. So likely not for some time to come.

hard to see this being more affordable than the Cybertruck.
 


OP
OP
Tinker71

Tinker71

Well-known member
First Name
Ray
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Threads
58
Messages
882
Reaction score
1,140
Location
Utah
Vehicles
1976 electric conversion bus
Occupation
Project Manager
Country flag
All of the prices are for vehicles sold in the Chinese market. Not clear what they would cost to import or if manufactured in the US, likely a lot more than quoted.

Also, not clear if/ when they will be available outside of china. So likely not for some time to come.

hard to see this being more affordable than the Cybertruck.
Nio has a battery swap station in Norway with plans to expand to several neighboring countries including Germany in 2022. They have over 900 swap stations in China.

Yes, without knowing the CT prices it is hard to speculate, but it does compete well with the X according to published specifications.

AND it will be produced in Aug 2022.
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
86
Messages
9,599
Reaction score
15,195
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
I disagree about the time. If you swap a battery it will be charged to 98% plus of capacity. Supercharging currently works pretty fast up to 80% then tapers off. It still takes 10-30 minutes. The last 20% takes even longer. No doubt this will improve over time.

Without a line, Nio quotes 3 minutes, Geeley 1 minute and BYD? That is faster than pumping gas.
The problem comes that a structural battery holds maybe 50% power in the first place. It's built into the car, so it fits better and weighs less. Higher performance. Even a fitted battery - one fit for a specific car - will have better aero and weight than a battery as cargo.

Cargo​
Fitted​
Structural​
Weight
Heavier
Neutral
Best
Volume
Bulkier
Better
Best
Performance
Neutral
Better
Best
Wh/mi
Poor
Neutral
Best
Recharge
Fastest
Neutral
Neutral

And if your replaceable battery is fitted, then you can only replace it with batteries for your specific car. It's maybe possible to do a Structural-replaceable, but it's unlikely. Structural points that are connected and disconnected are just going to perform worse. And it's another wear point to wear out.

It's like flashlights. Batteries you can swap are great, they get you going faster than charging, meaning you can just swap and go. But... It's another point to break. Another point to wear out. They're bulkier than built-in batteries, and less resilient to damage.

There are trade-offs. And being swappable might be a weakness down the line - do the bolt down points wear out or are fixable - or does the battery? Etc.

But at the end of the day in the US, we're usually on our own. We need things that don't break. That will work without a special support system. And that leans to structural batteries.

-Crissa
 

Bob Anderson

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Threads
15
Messages
141
Reaction score
220
Location
USA
Vehicles
Hyundai Sonota
Country flag
The competition is heating up. For many of us the CT will be mostly used as a rugged SUV with the ability to tow, most of the time.

This NIO offering is intriguing because it is designed to tow, supplies substantial power to the trailer, and I believe has a swappable battery up to 150Kwhr.

If true they fit 150kWhr in a space smaller than the CT with a less efficient package than the CT structural pack. Being quickly removable will come with a relative weight premium.

While I don't see battery swapping going mainstream in the USA it sure has its merits.
1.) The vehicle without the battery is only $60k Battery as a service option. vs $100k with the battery.
2.) Choose a lighter battery for in town or a heavier 150kWhr battery to tow or on trips. (More efficient and less wear on tires and roadway)
3.) The same swappable battery in a trailer or camper or boat would be awesome.
4.) Grid leveling. These big batteries could be charged slower off peak.
5.) Major damage to the battery would be a simple tow and swap. Assuming no fire. Not a major tear down of interior.

At the least this is a model X killer.


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-with-the-american-market-in-mind-191304.html
Battery swap stations will eventually die out as charging times continue to decrease. Does a battery swap station make sense when charging takes an hour, maybe? But not so much when charging only takes 15min. Additionally, the capital costs of a Supercharging station vs a Nio swapping station are night and day. Not only does the charging infrastructure need to be there, but you also have to carry the costs of all the idle battery packs which are extremely expensive. Also, you didn't mention in OP, what is the cost of service option?
 
OP
OP
Tinker71

Tinker71

Well-known member
First Name
Ray
Joined
Aug 8, 2020
Threads
58
Messages
882
Reaction score
1,140
Location
Utah
Vehicles
1976 electric conversion bus
Occupation
Project Manager
Country flag
The problem comes that a structural battery holds maybe 50% power in the first place. It's built into the car, so it fits better and weighs less. Higher performance. Even a fitted battery - one fit for a specific car - will have better aero and weight than a battery as cargo.

Cargo​
Fitted​
Structural​
Weight
Heavier
Neutral
Best
Volume
Bulkier
Better
Best
Performance
Neutral
Better
Best
Wh/mi
Poor
Neutral
Best
Recharge
Fastest
Neutral
Neutral

And if your replaceable battery is fitted, then you can only replace it with batteries for your specific car. It's maybe possible to do a Structural-replaceable, but it's unlikely. Structural points that are connected and disconnected are just going to perform worse. And it's another wear point to wear out.

It's like flashlights. Batteries you can swap are great, they get you going faster than charging, meaning you can just swap and go. But... It's another point to break. Another point to wear out. They're bulkier than built-in batteries, and less resilient to damage.

There are trade-offs. And being swappable might be a weakness down the line - do the bolt down points wear out or are fixable - or does the battery? Etc.

But at the end of the day in the US, we're usually on our own. We need things that don't break. That will work without a special support system. And that leans to structural batteries.

-Crissa
I agree with the analysis. However it is a little more complicated and blurry. Even swappable batteries will have some structural pack qualities and excess capacity beyond your 80% use case is essentially cargo.

Maybe someday there will be a standard. But then again 500Whrs per kg and 5 minute recharge would make swappable batteries even more obsolete.

In the mean time it would be nice to run around town with a 750 lb battery 90% of the time and slip in a 1500 lb battery for trips.

Who knows what batteries will look like in 10 years. I have been hoping for 3 years now that Tesla will make the batteries upgradable. Just drop in some dilithium crystals and you are good to go for 2 years to drive your classic CT around.

The Lucid top end rig is also interesting. They modified the floor in the rear seat area to fit more batteries. It is heavier and less comfortable than the next range model down.
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
86
Messages
9,599
Reaction score
15,195
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
Oh, yeah, there are a bunch of tradeoffs I didn't list. It is much more blurry, these are just the main points in the curves.

Like, to produce, a structural battery is probably less per unit... But the cost to develop would be much, much higher than a battery as cargo. And making the battery fitted doesn't preclude making it swappable - Tesla did that with the Model S - but all of these are a sliding scale, really.

-Crissa

 

 
CYBERBACKPACK
Top