Not enough cameras for FSD - a physic-driven simulation

firsttruck

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I found the video below demonstrates some blindspot issues commonly found in city driving that rare in highway travel.



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Jan 3, 2021
KookyBone
Tesla Model 3 not enough cameras for FSD?

I am big fan of Tesla, but i think Elon has problem: In my opinion Tesla has to many blind spots with only one camera to each side.

To explain it better, i made this short video with my animation software and simulated the viewing areas of the cameras.
As you can see in the video - the side camera have to many blind areas, were it can´t see - and i don´t think that some kind of "future prediction" can solve the problem in most cases. So i think this will make it really hard to reach REAL FSD at least with the actual hardware.I think at least two more cameras are needed (better four) and maybe some side radars for safety.But please be kind to each other discussing this ;-) THX for watching.

EDIT: Just realized that i wrote the wrong degrees in the text for the front camera - the real angle is not 130 degree, it is 120 degree. But i used 120 degree for the video simulation like Tesla says on their homepage, so everything still is correct in the simulation. Only a text error.




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John K

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Proportion to streets, curbs, building 6 inches from street, bollards 8 feet tall and lack of traffic signals and signage may give a false impression.

I am not against forward mounted side facing cameras.
 
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firsttruck

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It is common in cities to have buildings & walls directly next to cross traffic driving lanes.

A very common place is alleys that connect to main street.

Parked cars on cross traffic lanes.

Concrete/brick walls around both sides of corner.

Human drivers can lean their body forward enough so their head is at the car's A-pillar position and the driver can turn head directly left or right. These actions give human drivers much better left/right side views than the Tesla B-pillar camera.

For Tesla FSD camera only to be better than good human in all situations, the FSD camera views must be better than what is possible by good human drivers.

FSD needs directly focused left & right cameras at A-pillar or front bumper/headlight locations.
 
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firsttruck

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It would be really helpful if the simulation by KookyBone was updated to show what a human driver leaning forward to the A-pillar can see and how that reduces distance needed to creep into cross traffic.
 

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A narrow focus camera at the forward bumper would increase safety, I won't disagree.

But the problem you're showing is a problem of road design, not Tesla. If we accept this danger now, it's not really any different with the cautious AI.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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A narrow focus camera at the forward bumper would increase safety, I won't disagree.

But the problem you're showing is a problem of road design, not Tesla.

These road setup examples of obstacles I gave have been there for over 60-80 years and probably will never change.

The B-pillar cameras on Tesla Model-3 are over 2 feet further back than A-pillar.
Most human drivers can lean forward enough to get their head close to the A-pillar and so reduce the amount they need to creep by over 2 feet.

You, I, and Tesla have no control of the road design.

Are you suggesting geo-fencing or something for all these intersections where human drivers can do the maneuver but FSD can't?

Most alleys in downtown NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and others eastern U.S. cities.
All streets in USA where on the left side of FSD car there is continuous line of parked cars, trucks, vans the entire block.
Brick/concrete/wood perimeter walls around many properties
Millions of intersections.

Human drivers and Waymo cameras can see but Tesla FSD can't.

If we accept this danger now
Are you saying accept the danger of the FSD controlled car creeping out a couple extra feet into high-speed cross traffic when most human drivers can do it without such a dangereous operation. Human drivers require 2-3 feet less creep.

Having FSD car just backup out of the situation is also not a easy alternative for several reasons
1. FSD car can get hit by cross traffic before it can creep the extra couple feet it needs to get visibility for B-pillar camera.
2. Once FSD creeps out couple feet so B-pillar camera can see will the car really be able to backup fast enough if it sees a potential collision situation.
3. Will human drivers behind the FSD car provide room for backup.
If human driven cars normally maneuver this intersection but the FSD car can't the human drivers in the cars behind the FSD car might act irrationally (ie. road rage).


..., it's not really any different with the cautious AI.
Cautious AI is not the issue. It is dangerous.
FSD that can not do what hundreds of millions human drivers do and even Waymo cameras can see.
 
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firsttruck

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If the camera placement is the same with Cybertruck the results will be even worst because the B-pillar even further behind the A-pillar and the front of the vehicle.

The best solution for safety is four additional cameras (one at each corner of the vehicle).
 

John K

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If the camera placement is the same with Cybertruck the results will be even worst because the B-pillar even further behind the A-pillar and the front of the vehicle.

The best solution for safety is four additional cameras (one at each corner of the vehicle).
Would not two camera suffice since we are not reversing in these situations?
 

Crissa

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Cautious AI is not the issue. It is dangerous.
FSD that can not do what hundreds of millions human drivers do and even Waymo cameras can see.
Then what humans do is dangerous.

There is nothing special about it being an AI creeping into the road.

-Crissa
 
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firsttruck

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Would not two camera suffice since we are not reversing in these situations?
Yes, for forward direction travel you only need two ( one for each front corner).

The reason for the other two cameras is because you have similar blind-spots when backing up.

You might enter an alley and find ot you can not drive through because of obstacle (garbage truck, moving van, or west-side story reenactment) so you have to backout.
Even in surburbaofagarb If you needed to backup out of an alley you
Then what humans do is dangerous.

There is nothing special about it being an AI creeping into the road.

-Crissa

It is not about just creeping. The issue is how much creeping distance required.

Because the side cameras used by Tesla FSD are on the B-pillar instead of the A-pillar, Tesla FSD has to creep the vehicle 2-3 feet more into cross traffic than what a human driver needs.
 
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firsttruck

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This is not true.

-Crissa
If the view is blocked by building walls, property perimeter fence or a parked van how is this not true??

What alternative do you have in mind?
 
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firsttruck

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The human driver is not sitting three feet in front of the B-pillar camera.

-Crissa
I said 2-3 feet. The actual min-max depends on vehicle design & driver height above the waist/hip joint.

It is not the normal cruising down the highway sitting position that is important, it is the when stopped or creeping maximum forward position most average human driver's can get their head.
Maybe even head above the steering wheel or maybe a little further.
Short height drivers, drivers with back/neck problems might not be able to get their heads to these forward positions but many drivers can.

For most medium compact cars the difference could be a minimum of 2 feet.

Today I drove a Nissan Versa sedan medium compact car.
Some people drive sitting close to the steering wheel with arms bent but I drive sitting as far from the steering wheel as I can while still being able to control the wheel & pedals.

I did measurements

1. With my head resting on the headrest, near B-pillar and my head turned to the left (I also measured the horizontal distance from my eyes to top of steering wheel which was 24" (not angled distance, I measured only horizontal).

2. From my chin to top of the steering wheel is 24" (not angled distance, I measured only horizontal).

3. Without moving the seat position, I leaned forward and then turned my head to the left.

Result: The eye position difference was 24" (not angled distance, I measured only horizontal).
I could have got more if the A-pillar had not sloped so much toward the driver.
Jeep Wrangler type vehicles have near vertical A-pillar.

Unless there is physics I missed, in many blocked view situations, I could in fact creep 2 feet less into cross traffic lane than the current Tesla FSD that uses B-pillar cameras for direct left/right side views.

In these blocked view scenarios, Tesla FSD could beat the best human driver by an order of magnitude just by the Tesla FSD having a side camera at each vehicle corner because the creep amount total would drop from 2-4 feet (includes hood/frunk length) to a couple of inches.
 
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