Pointless Cybertruck mirrors!

Tenksen

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So, Im currently looking for my first EV since CT seems a way off. Recent trend with competitor pricing/Economy also leads me to believe I wont be able to afford one :).

That said I began my search for a new small ev and one thing has popped out at me - Camera rear view. I remember the discussions saying they wont get past regs and now we have those big mirrors on the CT prototype. It would seem that the big brands got them through regs with no issue and its becoming the norm.

I am hoping they revert back to the camera views to clean up the CT look again.

Thoughts on mirrors?

 

Luke42

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The conventional mirror setup on my Model Y works just fine. It's intuitive, and my habits from previous vehicles translate well.

There's nothing wrong with regular mirrors (especially when supplemented by well-placed cameras), except for the aero-drag penalty.

If there were a mirrorless setup for the Model Y, I'd have to look at the tradeoffs that come with that setup. The way the Model Y puts the side-camera view on the center-screen when you put on the turn signal doesn't replace the mirrors for me -- so the implementation details of a mirrorless setup would matter a lot to me.

The mirrors are likely to matter less on the CT, because it will have to overcome much bigger aerodynamic drag penalties when hauling external cargo.
 
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Ogre

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So, Im currently looking for my first EV since CT seems a way off. Recent trend with competitor pricing/Economy also leads me to believe I wont be able to afford one :).

That said I began my search for a new small ev and one thing has popped out at me - Camera rear view. I remember the discussions saying they wont get past regs and now we have those big mirrors on the CT prototype. It would seem that the big brands got them through regs with no issue and its becoming the norm.

I am hoping they revert back to the camera views to clean up the CT look again.

Thoughts on mirrors?
My thought is keep an eye on the Model 3.

There is a strong chance Tesla is going to be the only company which qualifies for the full $7,500 rebate next year and they may well be getting other subsidies on top of that. Model 3 might well be the best bang for the buck EV next year.
 

Jhodgesatmb

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The conventional mirror setup on my Model Y works just fine. It's intuitive, and my habits from previous vehicles translate well.

There's nothing wrong with regular mirrors (especially when supplemented by well-placed cameras), except for the aero-drag penalty.

If there were a mirrorless setup for the Model Y, I'd have to look at the tradeoffs that come with that setup. The way the Model Y puts the side-camera view on the center-screen when you put on the turn signal doesn't replace the mirrors for me -- so the implementation details of a mirrorless setup would matter a lot to me.

The mirrors are likely to matter less on the CT, because it will have to overcome much bigger aerodynamic drag penalties when hauling external cargo.
In the Model Y I use both the mirror and the camera view all the time. The problem with the camera view is that is very wide angle, whereas a mirror view is very close. But that is also a strength and weakness in reverse. So we need both. I believe that the camera could give us both but the mirror cannot.
 


JBee

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Biggest problem I have with cameras and displays, instead of mirrors, is that normal displays are two close to the driver. What happens is that when you look out onto the road outside and then back to standard side mirrors, your eyes barely have to refocus, because both the front and rear view through the mirrors are at the same focal depth. However, when you go from outside to an inside display you need to refocus your eyes onto the display, and then back again to look outside. So ideally, like on a HUD, there would be a lens system to allow you to look at the review displays without refocusing your eyes, whish would reduce reaction times and eye strain.

Failing that I'd actually prefer mirrors, although smaller ones would do too from a "rear view" functionality perspective. But for efficiency no mirrors is better, and also easier to incorporate low light enhancement or to dim them for headlights. Let alone add active warnings for lane departure, or lane occupancy etc or any other driver assistance feature.

Interestingly, rear view mirrors were apparently invented because the race spotter in old Indy car racers used to ride shotgun in the car and call out positions of other vehicles in the race to the driver. One day one of the spotters was crook and couldn't participate in the race, so they installed a mirror instead.
 

Jhodgesatmb

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Mirror
Safety issue does not override turning your head to look back.
FAA
When an Airworthiness Directive states direct view of damage it means direct visual with eye not camera or mirror or Xray.
I know it is a pain and looks bad but visually without any means of support that is why turning your head around on a turn and gets a direct visual view is better than any mirror or camera.
Now
SUV I cannot see what is behind the SUV but camera has caused me to crash and burn thinking I was safe.
You can turn your head all you want in a car and still have your vision blocked. I hanglided and paraglided for decades. No obstacles in most directions but you still couldn’t see in every direction, so either the FAA is living in some kind of fantasy world or I have the context wrong:
 

Luke42

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In the Model Y I use both the mirror and the camera view all the time. The problem with the camera view is that is very wide angle, whereas a mirror view is very close. But that is also a strength and weakness in reverse. So we need both. I believe that the camera could give us both but the mirror cannot.
I wonder if the A-pillar tweeters can be replaced with high-res HDR screens.

The area is a little small, though, and it's already used for something else.

That's setup where our existing habits would still work, with the side-mirror drag penalty removed.
 

firsttruck

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mirrors are the law... until they aren't.
Yup

Already in U.S., dedicated fully autonomous vehicles (ie, Robotaxis) can legally do without steering wheel, pedals and mirrors.


---------------------------------------------

This Vehicle Has No Side-View Mirrors—and It's Legal Self-driving startup Nuro is the first company to win an exemption from federal safety requirements. It won't be the last.
Feb 6, 2020
https://www.wired.com/story/vehicle-no-side-view-mirrors-legal/

.....
When Nuro’s R1 self-driving vehicle started delivering groceries in Arizona in late 2018, it sported a pair of unexpected and unnecessary appendages: side-view mirrors. Unexpected, because the press photos that accompanied its debut showed the toaster-like robot without them. Unnecessary, because there’s nobody inside the R1—neither driver nor passenger—to use them.

Its successor, the newly announced R2, can drop the vestigia. Federal regulators have freed Nuro from a few design requirements that no longer apply when the human’s gone. The exemption is the first of its kind for the self-driving industry, and it signals that America’s bureaucrats are willing to unchain autonomous vehicles from rules written for another age.

---------------------------------------------

GM wants to test a self-driving car that doesn’t have a steering wheel, pedals or mirrors
By Anurag Kotoky and Bloomberg
July 21, 2022
https://fortune.com/2022/07/21/gm-test-self-driving-car-no-steering-wheel-pedals-mirrors-nhtsa/

---------------------------------------------

Cruise Origin (dedicated fully self-driving car) Testing In California, Coming To Public Roads Soon.
The Origin doesn’t have mirrors, pedals, or a steering wheel and offers a huge amount of space for passengers.
By Michael Gauthier
Posted on October 26, 2022
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/10/cruise-origin-testing-in-california-coming-to-public-roads-soon/

---------------------------------------------

Rule change now allows deliveries of self-driving vehicles without steering wheels or pedals
By Fred Lambert - Mar. 11th 2022
https://electrek.co/2022/03/11/rule...ving-vehicles-without-steering-wheels-pedals/

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SgtSweatySac

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I'd be fine with camera-based mirror replacements on the sides, so long as we have the option to put on tow mirrors if need be. I don't plan on having on hauling around a 35-foot camper much, but even something like a dual-axel wide stance utility trailer with a tall load is a lot easier to handle and back up with tow mirrors.
 


Crissa

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I'd be fine with camera-based mirror replacements on the sides, so long as we have the option to put on tow mirrors if need be. I don't plan on having on hauling around a 35-foot camper much, but even something like a dual-axel wide stance utility trailer with a tall load is a lot easier to handle and back up with tow mirrors.
Why wouldn't you just use a camera?

-Crissa
 

SgtSweatySac

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Why wouldn't you just use a camera?

-Crissa
With the towing mirrors I prefer, you've got a decent sized convex lower and of course your taller regular glass. Similar to this but without the fancy LED's or heated glass:

71CUR-OvfTL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


Convex to keep an eye on the tires, how close you are to your edges, and to make sure you're not gonna sideswipe anyone hanging around in your blind spots. Top taller glass to keep an eye on the side of the load and immediate rear, especially if I start seeing the straps/chains shifting with something I have tied down; or a tarp coming off on a loose-material load.

Could you do the same with cameras and a screen? Of course. But unless that is a fairly large screen on your door that can show two different views, it won't nearly as quick or have as much detail as looking in the glass. I'd rather not have to switch between wide and normal views on a screen if I want to verify that everything is hunky-dory behind my cab.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that everyone would need these and they should be on EVERY Cybertruck coming off the line. 95% of the time I don't need them on my current truck, and keep smaller glass mounted. But for long/wide/tall loads, they're gonna be hard to beat compared to what it would cost to do with cameras and screens.
 

Crissa

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With the towing mirrors I prefer, you've got a decent sized convex lower and of course your taller regular glass. Similar to this but without the fancy LED's or heated glass:

71CUR-OvfTL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


Convex to keep an eye on the tires, how close you are to your edges, and to make sure you're not gonna sideswipe anyone hanging around in your blind spots. Top taller glass to keep an eye on the side of the load and immediate rear, especially if I start seeing the straps/chains shifting with something I have tied down; or a tarp coming off on a loose-material load.

Could you do the same with cameras and a screen? Of course. But unless that is a fairly large screen on your door that can show two different views, it won't nearly as quick or have as much detail as looking in the glass. I'd rather not have to switch between wide and normal views on a screen if I want to verify that everything is hunky-dory behind my cab.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that everyone would need these and they should be on EVERY Cybertruck coming off the line. 95% of the time I don't need them on my current truck, and keep smaller glass mounted. But for long/wide/tall loads, they're gonna be hard to beat compared to what it would cost to do with cameras and screens.
So why not cameras?

-Crissa
 

SgtSweatySac

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So why not cameras?

-Crissa
Okay.......:rolleyes:

Lemme make it a little more concise then:

1. Extra cost of adding equivalent cameras/screens compared to cost of towing mirrors
2. 95% of the time a large screen isn't needed in the door for those hauling on an irregular basis
3. You can quickly glance at the mirrors, vs. likely having to switch between standard and wide-angles on a camera/screen system
4. Adding/removing towing mirrors would likely be easier than adding/removing a wide-arm camera(s)
 

Crissa

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Okay.......:rolleyes:

Lemme make it a little more concise then:

1. Extra cost of adding equivalent cameras/screens compared to cost of towing mirrors
2. 95% of the time a large screen isn't needed in the door for those hauling on an irregular basis
3. You can quickly glance at the mirrors, vs. likely having to switch between standard and wide-angles on a camera/screen system
4. Adding/removing towing mirrors would likely be easier than adding/removing a wide-arm camera(s)
  1. A camera costs about $50. The head display varies.
  2. So... don't leave it there?
  3. So... use a different display configuration?
  4. Why is a tiny camera harder to screw onto a truck or trailer than a mirror?

Honestly, it seems like you have preconceptions and you're unwilling to go past them.

-Crissa

 

 
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