Powerwall 2 in vault of Cybertruck...easy range upgrade.

2Futre4u

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Lets say you get the 500 mile range CT. After X amount of miles the 500 mile pack will only give you 300 miles due to degradation. You might/could get a new 500 mile pack for the truck and place the degraded 300 mile pack in the vault for a total of 800 miles of range.
There are many high mileage Model S's/X's running around with 2-300,000 miles with only 3% of battery degradation.
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ajdelange

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Beyond which if they do replace your battery pack (and it does happen occasionally) they aren't going to give you the old one. Were it to degrade as much as 40% (to 300 from 500) it would go back for autopsy. Otherwise it would be put into some other energy storage system and finally be "melted down" for its lithium and transition metal content.
 

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For the truck there need to be replaceable battery packs maybe for those that tow? Subscription service. I don't see another way.
 

ajdelange

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The battery pack is, of course, replaceable but it is very unlikely that you will need to replace it in the time you own the truck and if you do the replacement would be under warranty. What would be the point of the subscription?
 

bfdog

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The battery pack is, of course, replaceable but it is very unlikely that you will need to replace it in the time you own the truck and if you do the replacement would be under warranty. What would be the point of the subscription?
There could be a pool of batteries fully charged that people slide into their trucks at filling stations. And they leave their empty ones behind. It's a lot of moving parts but Amazon is taking returns in Kohl's right now (at a Kiosk). Crazy times are a changin.
 


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There could be a pool of batteries fully charged that people slide into their trucks at filling stations. And they leave their empty ones behind. It's a lot of moving parts but Amazon is taking returns in Kohl's right now (at a Kiosk). Crazy times are a changin.
Tesla built some of their first vehicles with easy swap batteries and had automated switching stations. No one used them. The batteries charge fast enough from the supercharger network to handle all the needs so far.
The most expensive part of an EV is the battery. I am not going to purchase a battery, look after it and then swap it out for one that people have abused and be stuck with it until I can get to another switch out station. If you don’t have to worry about your battery health why would you? However no one else will care about the battery health. The infrastructure that is needed to swap batteries all over the world would be huge. Production of new vehicles would be down to as batteries is the biggest limitation to build more EVs. There would be lots of batteries sitting waiting to be swapped and to hit production demand for the CT would be 2-3 years longer.
No swapping batteries is not a good option.
 

ajdelange

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Really cool but not practical for a whole host of reasons such as those given in No. 21
 

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Tesla built some of their first vehicles with easy swap batteries and had automated switching stations. No one used them. The batteries charge fast enough from the supercharger network to handle all the needs so far.
The most expensive part of an EV is the battery. I am not going to purchase a battery, look after it and then swap it out for one that people have abused and be stuck with it until I can get to another switch out station. If you don’t have to worry about your battery health why would you? However no one else will care about the battery health. The infrastructure that is needed to swap batteries all over the world would be huge. Production of new vehicles would be down to as batteries is the biggest limitation to build more EVs. There would be lots of batteries sitting waiting to be swapped and to hit production demand for the CT would be 2-3 years longer.
No swapping batteries is not a good option.

I don't necessarily disagree. I picture battery swaps for some trucks. For some batteries in some trucks. Yesterday I was thinking of refueling trucks that deploy while a truck is moving. Like refueling planes. If these things auto-drive it wouldn't be that hard. Refueling planes exist.

Daily driving is one thing. Heavy towing is another. I'm thinking of the heavy towing trucks that would use this kind of stuff. So people are not "fast charging" for 45 minutes every 3 hours on a long haul. There could be a long haul battery pack that's in the bed, storage, a trailer, or tow dolly.
 

ajdelange

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Engineers are constantly making "tradeoffs" in which they study the relative advantages and disadvantages of taking one approach to solving a problem as opposed to another. The approach with the better score is chosen. As we see in No. 22 the S is configured in such a way that its battery pack can be replaced in less time than it takes to refuel an ICE vehicle and that goes in the plus column and its really the only thing that goes in the plus column. The question is how big a number to put in the plus column. Charging on the road is a funny thing. If you don't have it people won't buy your cars. The smartest thing Elon Musk ever did was build the charging network. Yet only 15% of charging is done at Super Chargers. And the average length of a Super Charger session seems to be about 30 minutes. In the minus column obviously goes the costs of refurbishing the SC network with a piece of factory automation equipment which is sophisticated, probably finicky and would not well withstand the assoults of snow, ice water and mud. Also in the negative column goes all the problems of maintaining the battery inventory, figuring out who owns the batteries etc. Ask any small brewer how he feels about kegs. So the engineers have to determine whether saving 20 minutes occasionally is worth enough to the customer that he is going to be swayed towards Tesla as opposed to Rivian to the extent that the extra sales will cover the extra costs (increased profits will ensue). You don't have to be an accountant to see why Tesla never implemented the battery swapping scheme,

Now the S is clearly about as well designed as it could be for battery swapping (bolts in from below). The Semi isn't so the mechanical problems alone would probably bring battery swapping to a screeching halt. A little thinking makes it clear that the Semi is not a long range vehicle (more range --> bigger battery --> less cargo capacity and poorer consumption). It will shine in regional warehouse to warehouse distribution service. The ware houses will be equipped with fast DC chargers and the trucks charged while loading and un-loading.

I was about to get into the trade space between hydrogen and lithium for long haul operations (which tends to come down on the hydrogen side) but then it occurred to me that an operator could implement "battery swapping" by having fully charged tractors waiting at stations (relais in the traditional sense) along its long haul routes. Simply disconnect the discharged tractor from the load and reconnect a charged one. Refueling that way probably would probably take less time than refueling with diesel. The Semi isn't a medium to short haul vehicle when so operated. Another nail in hydrogen's coffin lid.
 
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Bond007

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Elon has already told that the battery swap option is not needed or feasible in today changing technology. He gives example of cellphones. A few years ago most of Android / Samsung phones had batteries which could be swapped easily, but Apple didn’t since their batteries were deemed slightly ahead in technology. Now everyone uses better technology batteries and swapping them out is not a worthwhile option as they will supposedly last the lifetime of the phone. It’s the same with automobiles. Improving range and shorter charging times have virtually put an end to that concept. The impending announcement of million mile battery will be the final nail in the coffin. Apparently China is still pushing forward with that concept but I feel theirs will be a dead end soon too.
 


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Elon has already told that the battery swap option is not needed or feasible in today changing technology. He gives example of cellphones. A few years ago most of Android / Samsung phones had batteries which could be swapped easily, but Apple didn’t since their batteries were deemed slightly ahead in technology. Now everyone uses better technology batteries and swapping them out is not a worthwhile option as they will supposedly last the lifetime of the phone. It’s the same with automobiles. Improving range and shorter charging times have virtually put an end to that concept. The impending announcement of million mile battery will be the final nail in the coffin. Apparently China is still pushing forward with that concept but I feel theirs will be a dead end soon too.

I agree and recognize the downsides to replaceable batteries. However on my cellphone right now I have a Mophie battery pack so I can last all day with my iPhone 7 Plus. I still think the 3M will need to have an option for frunk or bed batteries. Or something extra for those that want increased range when towing. An option--not something standard. I doubt it happens but it could.

I think it's going to be a challenge to get power density needed and tow 14K+ pounds a reasonable distance. I'm buying mine and only expecting to get 100-120 miles on a day I'm towing heavy. With that towing capability it will be a heavy truck, have inefficient E load tires, poor drag coefficient, etc. Engineers right now are probably wondering how to market (and build) a 80K Tesla truck that can only tow heavy for 120 miles when loaded down, despite that it was advertised as 500+ range. And why he moved that truck to the front of the line before the technology is there to accomplish it (because they need every month they have to design it). I'm just guessing though. I'm not being negative on purpose--just gauging the truth based on his history of over-promising. Especially after I watched that physicist's video talking about a camping trip to the mountains. Towing a trailer with my GX470 sends the economy down to half. Same with my diesel. I rode my bicycle from Austin to Shiner one morning (100 miles) and I thought a lot about power output and wind drag as my legs turned to concrete.
 

ajdelange

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Let's say the Semi has a 1 MWh battery pack. This has been widely suggested. If it goes 500 miles that's 2 kWh per mile. Assuming that range towing about 1/5 range with no trailer suggests that the tractor consumption, unloaded, is around 400 Wh/mi which seems reasonable. Really, really rough calculations of course but...

[Edit] I'm sure you all find that very interesting but re-reading the post I was responding to I see it doesn't really respond at all so sorry about that. I will note, however, that my calculations (based on some very crude assumptions about the relationship of a trailers weight to its drag) indicate that reduction of range to the 120 - 150 miles band seems reasonable for a 14,000 pound trailer.

I think the technology is there: we're talking a battery pack double the capacity of the the current 100 kWh battery. That's doable as is but we also know that some new tech will be announced next month and all indications seem to be that greater energy density will be featured.
 
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bfdog

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Maybe a way to replace batteries is from under the truck. Especially if the skateboard isn't really structural. Everything could happen underground. Drop a portion of the battery(ies). Raise replacements. It could be like an automated car wash where you drive over a track. That would help with hauling trailers too, no need for huge pull through charging areas. "Drive over" battery packs could be a thing. Raise suspension. Drop some battery. Drive over fresh battery. Raise fresh battery. Lower suspension. Drive off. If range is super important there could be ways to extend without charging every 2 hours. Which would be necessary in extreme situations otherwise. Won't matter to me. I only tow within 100 miles. I'm towing today 10,900 pounds in my 14K rated trailer so I probably have 16K pounds. My fresh built transmission overheated. Wow. Dropped that off and I'm towing 6K of sod. Much easier. But the CT could handle my work today--with ease.
 

ajdelange

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Maybe a way to replace batteries is from under the truck.... Drop a portion of the battery(ies). Raise replacements. It could be like an automated car wash where you drive over a track.
I don't think anyone expects you to study every post in a thread but you ought to consider looking at a least a couple of the more recent ones.
 

bfdog

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I don't think anyone expects you to study every post in a thread but you ought to consider looking at a least a couple of the more recent ones.
Objection--assumes facts that are not in evidence. I read more than enough of the posts on here. 5 times a day.

Just because people say replaceable batteries isn't practical doesn't mean I can't drone on about it with slightly evolved ideas. People said FedEx wouldn't work.
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