Honoring Original Estimated Pricing

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jerhenderson

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The Dual Motor MSRP will probably be priced $65-$70k.

$70k would be a stretch since that would be nearly a 40% price increase from the $49,900 MSRP announced in November, 2019.
there's no reason to think there'll be a 40% price increase.
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Ogre

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Read my last post and try again.

How many early reservation holders will cancel their extra reservations if they don’t have a way to sell them?

I’m quite sure Tesla would prioritise genuine reservation holders, and maximise profit available from queue jumpers by restricting the available vehicles, thus maintaining demand but also acknowledging people like you get very upset that high wealth individuals exist and pay ridiculous amounts of money for new toys.

It’s quite amusing that you are objecting to this thinking it amplifies queue jumpers.

It doesn’t.

It just acknowledges they exist and allows Tesla to profit from it rather than some rando from the internet.

The cancellations will give an indication as to how many were intended to be scalped. Maybe Tesla puts that same amount out for auction or maybe a percentage, either way you’re not going to be shifted back in the queue.

Have we clarified your objection yet?
It appears your objection is merely misunderstanding of how the capitalist system works
This is the laziest arguing I’ve ever heard.

Right now, I know beyond a doubt, the maximum number of people in front of me.

What you are saying 100% guarantees some people will have the opportunity to jump the line. There is zero doubt here. In return I get??? A bag of words you shuffle up each time you post.

No evidence this will work, no economic theory, no numbers on % of scalping, nothing—I should just accept your theory based on your bags of words.

That you can’t see how hollow and unconvincing that is is mind boggling.
 

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What you are saying 100% guarantees some people will have the opportunity to jump the line. There is zero doubt here. In return I get??? A bag of words you shuffle up each time you post.
How is it different from what is currently in place? Are you 100% sure 0% of the reservations in front of you are not going to be scalped?
Think about the mechanics of a pricing system.
If someone can buy at a low price and sell it at a higher price, many people will sell.

To reduce incentives for middlemen Tesla increase prices so that the reward for the effort is reduced.
Everyone pays more.
As the market reaches saturation auction prices would match MSRP and the system would go back to a waiting list.

Its unfortunate my bag of words is confusing for you but you haven’t brought any compelling arguments against this.

People are going to jump the queue in front of you.

Wouldn’t you like the satisfaction of understanding what your patience in the queue has saved you?

Currently that saving is completely opaque, hidden by private transactions.

Shall we agree on some basic facts?
  1. CyberTruck demand is unprecedented
  2. The waitlist is at least 4 years long
  3. Tesla wants to honour the reservation system
  4. People will pay a premium to dishonour the reservation system.
  5. Scalpers will make a profit from dishonouring the reservation system.
  6. Tesla has high margins to mitigate parasitic revenue losses.
Are we on the same page here?
 
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Ogre

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Still no basis for the chatter.

No point in arguing this anymore. You refuse actually demonstrate where it’s worked in the past, how many trucks they might inject, how much demand that would relieve… or basically anything concrete.

I won’t accept anything aside from something concrete or at least solid economic theory from … something.

It is an impasse.
 

cvalue13

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Imy bag of words is confusing for you but you haven’t brought any compelling arguments against this.
your

point

is

not

“confusing”

it’s

merely

unpersuasive


Are we on the same page here?
I believe we’re on page ~60 of you attempting to get traction, failing.
 


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Still no basis for the chatter.

No point in arguing this anymore. You refuse actually demonstrate where it’s worked in the past, how many trucks they might inject, how much demand that would relieve… or basically anything concrete.

I won’t accept anything aside from something concrete or at least solid economic theory from … something.

It is an impasse.
You are attempting to use the same argument that’s been levelled at Tesla for years… That’s never happened before, show me some proof I can drive cross country in an electric car… Show me some proof 100% renewable grid is possible. You need to accept some assumptions if you’re considering a hypothetical.

It hasn’t been tried in the past because there hasn’t been a product with this level of supply and demand incongruence. It’s a framework that would need Teslas data to provide actual figures. Hypotheticals are tricky like that.
I’m guessing you’re asking Tesla right now for a firm delivery date…

Whether this market strategy came from some official source or not won’t help you understand, especially if you’re not sure why you’re arguing in the first place.

It’s great that you’re skeptical but you’ll be perpetually perplexed if you can’t confirm basic facts. You can only assess the veracity of a hypothetical with an understanding of the input parameters.
 
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HaulingAss

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Scalping has zero impact on my deliver date and zero impact on what I pay. You are tilting at some bizarro windmill with no basis.
Exactly!

You can read some really odd ideas on COC. The funny thing is that the people writing them then accuse everyone else of having odd ideas. It's kind of comical, but it becomes tiring after a while. To the point I don't even bother reading them anymore.
 
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Exactly!

You can read some really odd ideas on TMC. The funny thing is that the people writing them then accuse everyone else of having odd ideas. It's kind of comical, but it becomes tiring after a while. To the point I don't even bother reading them anymore.
You’re both cannot possibly believe scalping doesn’t effect the retail price. You’re both delusional if you cannot accept scalping effects the retail price. Why else would Teslas profit margins be so high?

It’s been good value sharpening this idea with you. I’m yet to find a compelling argument against this suggestion. It’s all hypothetical and unlikely to actually reach the person that would make a decision on it it’s all mute anyway.
 
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jerhenderson

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You’re both delusional if you cannot accept scalping effects the retail price. Why else would Teslas profit margins be so high?
Are you actually saying that Tesla's profits are industry leading because of scalpers re-selling cars?? maybe you should look at their vertical integration model, and their direct sales model, and their design-in-house model, and their limited selection model, and their efficient factory model, and their limited options model, and their construction model, to see the real source of profits.
 

HaulingAss

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Are you actually saying that Tesla's profits are industry leading because of scalpers re-selling cars??
Actually, yes, that *IS* what he's saying! Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Tesla's margins are industry-leading because they can make a better car for less money. It's called efficiency. Has nothing to do with a little scalping on the side. I'm just dumbfounded at the idiocy of that idea.
 


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Are you actually saying that Tesla's profits are industry leading because of scalpers re-selling cars?? maybe you should look at their vertical integration model, and their direct sales model, and their design-in-house model, and their limited selection model, and their efficient factory model, and their limited options model, and their construction model, to see the real source of profits.
You are talking about value not demand.

Why aren’t they selling them cheaper? Because if they did the supply would be bought up by resellers and sold at market value. Why does Elon say the cars are too expensive? Why do they keep their margins so high? Because otherwise the wait list blows out. Scalpers take up delivery slots and absorb the profit available, this is just basic economics.
 
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Actually, yes, that *IS* what he's saying! Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Tesla's margins are industry-leading because they can make a better car for less money. It's called efficiency. Has nothing to do with a little scalping on the side. I'm just dumbfounded at the idiocy of that idea.

No, it’s not at all what I’m saying. There are multiple reasons why Tesla can ask for such margins but that is not the reason they take them.

If Tesla was able to supply all of the demand for any of their vehicles at some arbitrary low figure, $40k for a Cybertruck for instance (don’t get stuck on this number, it’s irrelevant), they would do so. But because there is an incongruous dynamic between supply and demand Tesla commands industry leading margins.

To think that Tesla would deliver CyberTruck at reveal prices at launch without some sort of restriction on the sales contract is idiocy squared.
 
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HaulingAss

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No, it’s not at all what I’m saying. There are multiple reasons why Tesla can ask for such margins but that is not the reason they take them.
Yes, you said it right here:

You’re both delusional if you cannot accept scalping effects the retail price. Why else would Teslas profit margins be so high?
To think that Tesla would deliver CyberTruck at reveal prices at launch without some sort of restriction on the sales contract is idiocy squared.
There is a restriction on the purchase and sales agreement used by Tesla. It looks like you haven't read it. Tesla has the right to refuse sales to people they believe are going to act like a reseller.

This is getting tiring, you are arguing in circles and not making sense.
 

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Tesla has the right to refuse sales to people they believe are going to act like a reseller.
This only works with repeat offenders.
Once the sale has gone through Tesla can’t take the vehicle back from you.
With over a million reservations and likely significantly more demand how are Tesla going to mitigate the risk the thousands of people with two reservations keeping the first for themselves and the second to scalp? Or just completing both transactions then selling them both.

This is an unprecedented situation. Even when the list was at 200k a vocal selection of those people were already talking about having more than one reservation in order to scalp their reservation.

This is only going in circles because you seem to dismiss scalping as a minor issue. If prices at launch are high, profit loss from scalping unlikely to be an issue. But if prices resemble reveal, Tesla is going to lose profit to thousands of parasites unless there is a restrictive covenant within the sales contract.

Do you want launch prices to be high or do you want to scalp your reservation?
 
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jerhenderson

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You are talking about value not demand.

Why aren’t they selling them cheaper? Because if they did the supply would be bought up by resellers and sold at market value. Why does Elon say the cars are too expensive? Why do they keep their margins so high? Because otherwise the wait list blows out. Scalpers take up delivery slots and absorb the profit available, this is just basic economics.
teslas margins are high for all of the models of their business I've mentioned, plus they are intelligent enough to have cash to pay for their new factories, etc, and not heavily debt financed. a poor business strategy is to accept low margins - 'the race to the bottom' scenario.
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