Reduce confusion about 4680s, LFP & non-Tesla manufacturers

firsttruck

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Tesla battery day presented multiple technologies & processes of which 4680 size form factor is only one. Using term 4680 can cause confusion if more context is not given.

4680 is primarily a size but has also been used as a short-hand name for the entire suite of technologies announced on Tesla battery day. However not all these technologies are required for 4680s.

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Technologies & processes:

4680 size form factor ( 46mm diameter by 80mm height )

Tab-less (which should really be called continuous multi tabs)

DBE ( Dry Battery Electrode coating, derived from work of Maxwell Technologies)

Higher levels of silicon in anode

Tesla choosing chemistry based on cost & range needs for specific Tesla model.
1. LFP (LiFePO4, no Cobalt)
2. Nickel / Manganese / some Cobalt
3. High Nickel with no Cobalt

Cooling from bottom of cells (previously Tesla had cooling tubes between cells)

Structural battery pack

Stream-lined non-stop system of fabrication ( processes like used in food or printing industries)

Stream-lined batched system to do cell testing & initial charging


----------------------

I think "Tab-less" is probably the only technology that probably required for 4680 form factor.
4680s could be made without "Tab-less" but then many disadvantages from longer linear length of material in larger diameter cell forms are exhibited.


Most all of the technologies could be used with LFP chemistry.

Some of the technologies are more bleeding edge than others. The most problematic are probably the DBE & high silicon anode and so these two might not be implemented in some early 4680 based products from some manufacturers.

Not all 4680s manufacturers will have all the technologies in every 4680 models.

Early model 4680s with LFP when used in Teslas might only use
1. 4680 size form factor
2. Tab-less (which should really be called continuous multi tabs)
3. Cooling from bottom of cells (previously Tesla had cooling tubes between cells)
4. Structural battery pack

 
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Jhodgesatmb

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What’s the point here? On Battery Day they very clearly said that their goal is a combination of technologies; and that this combination would increase range, reduce cost of making batteries, and would reduce capital costs. It seems as though the only thing that can be varied is whether they use high nickel, nickel manganese, or lfp.
 

Luke42

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Lots of people conflate the issues firsttruck mentioned.

As I've said before, one of my favorite hypotheses is that the short range Cybertruck will have 4680 LiFePo4 batteries, and the long range ones will have high nickel batteries.

I'm the first to admit that I don't have any evidence for or against this hypothesis, but lots of people have asked questions which even discount the possibility.

I appreciate and agree with firsttruck's clarification.
 
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firsttruck

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What’s the point here? On Battery Day they very clearly said that their goal is a combination of technologies; and that this combination would increase range, reduce cost of making batteries, and would reduce capital costs. It seems as though the only thing that can be varied is whether they use high nickel, nickel manganese, or lfp.
Tesla probably has patents on many aspects of what was announced.
Tesla might not license all of them to their battery partners & suppliers.

Even on battery day Elon said some technologies might take longer to be realized (ie three years)

Should Tesla not start ANY Cybertruck shippings until all 4680 technologies scale?

My guess is DBE & maximum high silicon might take the longest to perfect & scale to mass production.

Some of the other technologies can be done with small modifications to existing liquid coating battery plants or new plants based on old designs by CATL & LG Chem.

Initially only the top Performance, Plaid car models, Tri-motor CyberTruck, and Semi might be the only ones with Tesla 4680 super batteries.
Other models might get LFP 4680s made by Tesla battery partners & suppliers.
 
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firsttruck

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What’s the point here? On Battery Day they very clearly said that their goal is a combination of technologies; and that this combination would increase range, reduce cost of making batteries, and would reduce capital costs. It seems as though the only thing that can be varied is whether they use high nickel, nickel manganese, or lfp.
time
point subject
14:10 Stacking Up the Benefits of Tesla's Vertical Integration
14:34 A New Trajectory

In "A New Trajectory" section, Elon says
1. year to 18 months to start to realize some of the benefits
2. about 3 years to fully realize all benefits


Tesla Battery Day: entire Event in 16 minutes (Supercut)
680,389 views
Sep 22, 2020
Future Lab
 
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Jhodgesatmb

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Lots of people conflate the issues firsttruck mentioned.

As I've said before, one of my favorite hypotheses is that the short range Cybertruck will have 4680 LiFePo4 batteries, and the long range ones will have high nickel batteries.

I'm the first to admit that I don't have any evidence for or against this hypothesis, but lots of people have asked questions which even discount the possibility.

I appreciate and agree with firsttruck's clarification.
It is possible, but I would have expected Elon Musk to say so. No one would have been surprised as your hypothesis suggests (and I agree).
 

Jhodgesatmb

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Tesla probably has patents on many aspects of what was announced.
Tesla might not license all of them to their battery partners & suppliers.

Even on battery day Elon said some technologies might take longer to be realized (ie three years)

Should Tesla not start ANY Cybertruck shippings until all 4680 technologies scale?

My guess is DBE & maximum high silicon might take the longest to perfect & scale to mass production.

Some of the other technologies can be done with small modifications to existing liquid coating battery plants or new plants based on old designs by CATL & LG Chem.

Initially only the top Performance, Plaid car models, Tri-motor CyberTruck, and Semi might be the only ones with Tesla 4680 super batteries.
Other models might get LFP 4680s made by Tesla battery partners & suppliers.
My point in asking was not to question what you were saying but, rather, to note that none of it is new. As you say, it was all mentioned on battery day and makes sense. I think that all Tesla vehicles will use 4680 cells, tabless, structural battery packs, die casting front and rear ends, that they will continue to innovate and to migrate those innovations into their product line, and this will not only take time but will never end.

I suppose that maybe what you are wondering is just how much of this technology will be in the first manufacturing run of the CT. My understanding is that all CTs will use the 4680, tabless, structural pack, and die cast rear end. What I don’t know is what the cell chemistry they will use is. I don’t really care as long as they met the range and other performance metrics they promised.
 

Crissa

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4680 requires the tabless design to work.

The Tesla structural battery requires the 4680 to work.

The LFP batteries are already being used in China. It's unrelated, really.

The Ni-Mn batteries are probably using Aluminum.

And the other technology was adding Silicon to the batteries.

-Crissa
 

Diehard

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Does anyone know how the "structural" part of the pack works? How it attaches to and most importantly detaches from rest of the CT? In other words after 12-18 months or three years, if something was missed with the new technologies and under specific conditions, the pack fails, is it easy to replace the whole pack but difficult to replace parts of t, or it is even difficult to replace the pack too? I know battery warranty is long and probably no one is concerned but I am curious.
 

Crissa

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There's lots of ways it could work, but no one knows exactly how it will work.

But it's very unlikely that it would be unable to be replaced. At the very worst, they just swap out the truck for a different one. And that just seems weird.

-Crissa

 

 
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