Tax Credit vs Cash for ICE clunker

Tinker71

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I don't know how may of Fords 200,000 tax credits are available for the F150 lightning, but the first people that ordered the F150 are going to get a great deal.

I think the tax credit was a success, it incentivized the first 10 years of development. In some respects for fairness each manufacture should get their allotment, but on the other hand the late comers aren't doing much development at this stage, Research and Development is Replicate and Duplicate. This needs to be phased out.

There is also the fact that most of the incentives went to people who could afford to drop $70,000 - $100,000 on a new car..... which is not progressive at all.

I think the Biden administration should offer a cash for ICE clunker trade in credit. The lower MPG vehicles would get a high amount, say $5,000. The higher MPG newer vehicles would get less maybe $2500. Somehow for every incentive given a "currently registered" drivable ICE needs to be permanently taken out of service. The newer trade ins would drive down the cost in the used car market while the true beaters are taken off the road. I can foresee the fraudsters out in force, so this would need to be considered in the bill.

This would be more progressive and maximize the decarbonization effort.





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Diehard

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I don't know how may of Fords 200,000 tax credits are available for the F150 lightning, but the first people that ordered the F150 are going to get a great deal.

I think the tax credit was a success, it incentivized the first 10 years of development. In some respects for fairness each manufacture should get their allotment, but on the other hand the late comers aren't doing much development at this stage, Research and Development is Replicate and Duplicate. This needs to be phased out.

There is also the fact that most of the incentives went to people who could afford to drop $70,000 - $100,000 on a new car..... which is not progressive at all.

I think the Biden administration should offer a cash for ICE clunker trade in credit. The lower MPG vehicles would get a high amount, say $5,000. The higher MPG newer vehicles would get less maybe $2500. Somehow for every incentive given a "currently registered" drivable ICE needs to be permanently taken out of service. The newer trade ins would drive down the cost in the used car market while the true beaters are taken off the road. I can foresee the fraudsters out in force, so this would need to be considered in the bill.

This would be more progressive and maximize the decarbonization effort.
If they are really clunkers, they will go out of circulation without incentives. The effort should go to new vehicles. A new ICE made today can add carbon for another twenty years. A 19 year old clunker will die next year anyway. I think the incentives should go to the least expensive EVs with a minimum spec. Lowering the price tag of a $100K Hummer EV to $90K does not influence any decision but making a $32K leaf $22K will convert many ICE buyers and prevent many new ICE sold. This will discourage automakes to raise the price in anticipation of incentive to take a chunk of that tax money out of customer pocket.
 

datechboss101

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I don't know how may of Fords 200,000 tax credits are available for the F150 lightning, but the first people that ordered the F150 are going to get a great deal.

I think the tax credit was a success, it incentivized the first 10 years of development. In some respects for fairness each manufacture should get their allotment, but on the other hand the late comers aren't doing much development at this stage, Research and Development is Replicate and Duplicate. This needs to be phased out.

There is also the fact that most of the incentives went to people who could afford to drop $70,000 - $100,000 on a new car..... which is not progressive at all.

I think the Biden administration should offer a cash for ICE clunker trade in credit. The lower MPG vehicles would get a high amount, say $5,000. The higher MPG newer vehicles would get less maybe $2500. Somehow for every incentive given a "currently registered" drivable ICE needs to be permanently taken out of service. The newer trade ins would drive down the cost in the used car market while the true beaters are taken off the road. I can foresee the fraudsters out in force, so this would need to be considered in the bill.

This would be more progressive and maximize the decarbonization effort.
Great idea, but unfortunately, there is a crap ton of carbon emittance on the EV side too, just not directly (it's more indirect emittance). Maybe the incentive should be a higher tax credit to buy an EV and to charge the EV with renewable resources that don't cause harm to the environment. The tax credit would balance out with the installation of a solar-powered charger instead of using the house's power plant-based (nuclear reactor, coal, etc.) power.

In addition, your point of "currently registered driveable ICE needs to be permanently taken out of service" has economic issues and problems for the majority of the people. I am pretty sure the poor cannot afford even the cheapest EV in the market when ICE cars can be had for $500 or cheaper.

If we want to maximize decarbonization, we should make bills, laws, lobbies, and protests against factories and manufacturers that don't use safe unharmful renewable resources, to start using renewable resources. Also, let's address another big issue: the unnecessary office commute (seriously, this needs to be eliminated more than anything, in terms of automobiles and commutes).
 

Bill906

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the unnecessary office commute (seriously, this needs to be eliminated more than anything, in terms of automobiles and commutes).

Agreed. And if there's a silver lining to the Covid pandemic, it's that it made a lot of people realize just how unnecessary going into the office really is. I am an office worker. About 7 years ago I started working from home on occasion. It quickly escalated to once a week, then twice a week. My normal schedule soon became office Tuesday Wednesday Thursday, home Monday and Friday and then I'd often work from home on office days occasionally as it suited me. My supervisors were cautious of opening the floodgate and letting me work from home for longer stretches, and I was also skeptical I could effectively work from home for long stretches. The pandemic gave us the chance to test that. From March 17th 2020 to present I needed to go into the office twice. If you're in the market for an office building I suspect you're going to be finding some bargains in the not to distant future.
 

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I think Ford only has about 75K of tax credits available at the moment. I would bet most of those will be gone buy the time the F150E is out. The MachE will take most of those.
 

duck

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There is also the fact that most of the incentives went to people who could afford to drop $70,000 - $100,000 on a new car..... which is not progressive at all.

I think the Biden administration should offer a cash for ICE clunker trade in credit. The lower MPG vehicles would get a high amount, say $5,000. The higher MPG newer vehicles would get less maybe $2500. Somehow for every incentive given a "currently registered" drivable ICE needs to be permanently taken out of service. The newer trade ins would drive down the cost in the used car market while the true beaters are taken off the road. I can foresee the fraudsters out in force, so this would need to be considered in the bill.

This would be more progressive and maximize the decarbonization effort.
Since you're putting together a progressive wish list, why didn't you include a social justice component? After all, Mr. Butigieg has said that highways are inherently racist.
 

Luke42

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After all, Mr. Butigieg has said that highways are inherently racist.
Not quite.

Some highways were deliberately routed in such a way as to enforce segregation.

If you're interested in the actual topic, here's a paper which explains the idea:
https://repository.upenn.edu/curej/176/

If you're merely interested in repeating shallow political jabs you heard on conservative media, though, a 90-page explanation of the topic isn't going to be very interesting to you. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Butigieg suggested we should make some changes to the infrastructure to migrate the unfairness a bit, so that the infrastructure serves all Americans. But, of course, given Butigieg's political affiliation, lots of people are working really hard to take this the wrong way. 🤦🏻‍♂️

There really are serious issues to discuss here, though, for anyone who wants to study up on it.
 
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Crissa

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Since you're putting together a progressive wish list, why didn't you include a social justice component? After all, Mr. Butigieg has said that highways are inherently racist.
Highways were inherently racist. They were built through poor neighborhoods who didn't have the money to resist them. They were built to serve those with cars over busses and trains. Where they get built, who they served... Even today, fancier white neighborhoods get fancier highways while poor neighborhoods are lucky to get sound abatement walls.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-09/robert-moses-and-his-racist-parkway-explained

Even this guy, who put 'it was more complicated' in the title but has to end with 'well, they were right' about the highway being built to resist mass transit and the poor people who'd need it.

That's why it's important to aim to spread around the benefits. Yes, EVs right now have benefited the rich over the poor. But I was able to get a used EV, and that's why I have one, while I save for a new one. Incentives should be used to help those who have to buy cheaper, used models.

-Crissa
 

Sirfun

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One thing that I don't see mentioned when people talk about the $7500 tax break on EV's. People only get the full $7500, if they owe over that amount in taxes on the year of the purchase. So there again it doesn't help a lot of people that much. If you don't make that much you end up not payig any taxes that year which is still pretty nice. BUT, for the rich person with a high tax bill, they get a better price for the same car a not so wealthy person.
 

datechboss101

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Not quite.

Some highways were deliberately routed in such a way as to enforce segregation.

Buttigieg suggested we should make some changes to the infrastructure to migrate the unfairness a bit, so that the infrastructure serves all Americans. But, of course, given Buttigieg's political affiliation, lots of people are working really hard to take this the wrong way. 🤦🏻‍♂️

There really are serious issues to discuss here, though, for anyone who wants to study up on it.
Let's be honest here, ol' Pete has little to no clue on what he is talking about. But honestly, my answer would make it so political.

I saw a few videos on the Utubes on how interstates were constructed. Unfortunately, we have a president that supports segregation and is extremely racist (given his track record of 80 years of doing nothing but being super racist), so I highly doubt jackcrap that anything would change. Highways were intentionally built through poor communities, because A) The land was dirt cheap, B) It was politically motivated by a certain messed up and racist political party C) the Government was too dang lazy to implement more miles on the highways to avoid cutting through poor neighborhoods (seriously, majority of the dang highways & interstates are kinda straight, no curves, nothin, just bland and boring, but makes a great drag stripe).

However, what even pisses me off, is we have toll roads where the government is still adding additional toll booths, making it a total cash grab. Is there any benefits for adding additional toll booths? HECK NO, otherthan finding more ways to make the common hard-working man poorer. I swear, turnpikes and toll roads are excessively unsafe.
 

datechboss101

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You explained in detail why the highways were racist, at least you get the point, even if you don't want to call it that.

If you want fewer toll booths, you might try not voting for conservatives in the future ^-^

-Crissa
How are highways racist again? I literally don't understand how inanimate objects that has no thought, no movement, no human-like characteristics can be deemed racist, other than the idiots (politicians, local municipalities, etc.) that had viewpoints of pro-segregation and pro-racism. Also, I don't like progressive nor liberal viewpoints one bit, if you want to know my political views (realized this after seeing my peers turning for communist and socialist policies). Yet, I currently live in a highly dense liberal area (yes, Orange County FL has shifted extremely left over the past few years) and lived in a super-dense progressive area (Hershey, PA, where I personally dealt with racism and bullying frequently since I am a minority of minorities) and my university is in a highly dense liberal area (Miami-dade/Broward).

Toll roads are most dense in liberal parts of Florida (i.e.: Orange, Broward, Osceola, Broward, and Miami); which, unfortunately, brings in uneducated & careless drivers and dangerous driving. And the toll company in Orange County recently hiked the toll rates on all toll roads.
 

Luke42

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How are highways racist again? I literally don't understand how inanimate objects that has no thought, no movement, no human-like characteristics can be deemed racist, other than the idiots (politicians, local municipalities, etc.) that had viewpoints of pro-segregation and pro-racism. Also, I don't like progressive nor liberal viewpoints one bit, if you want to know my political views (realized this after seeing my peers turning for communist and socialist policies). Yet, I currently live in a highly dense liberal area (yes, Orange County FL has shifted extremely left over the past few years) and lived in a super-dense progressive area (Hershey, PA, where I personally dealt with racism and bullying frequently since I am a minority of minorities) and my university is in a highly dense liberal area (Miami-dade/Broward).

Toll roads are most dense in liberal parts of Florida (i.e.: Orange, Broward, Osceola, Broward, and Miami); which, unfortunately, brings in uneducated & careless drivers and dangerous driving. And the toll company in Orange County recently hiked the toll rates on all toll roads.
Highways are not inherently racist. That phrasing is just conservatives trying real hard make sure they fail to comprehend the issue. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Decades ago, many highways were routed using a racist process, because only white neighborhoods had the clout to fight eminent domain (in some cases), and to to keep "certain people" in "their part of the city" (in other cases). As a result, the routes don't always make sense, or serve the modern residents of the city efficiently.

Fixing this expensive, but so is wasting time on poorly routed highways.
 

duck

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Highways were inherently racist. They were built through poor neighborhoods who didn't have the money to resist them. They were built to serve those with cars over busses and trains. Where they get built, who they served... Even today, fancier white neighborhoods get fancier highways while poor neighborhoods are lucky to get sound abatement walls.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-09/robert-moses-and-his-racist-parkway-explained

Even this guy, who put 'it was more complicated' in the title but has to end with 'well, they were right' about the highway being built to resist mass transit and the poor people who'd need it.

That's why it's important to aim to spread around the benefits. Yes, EVs right now have benefited the rich over the poor. But I was able to get a used EV, and that's why I have one, while I save for a new one. Incentives should be used to help those who have to buy cheaper, used models.

-Crissa
No need to explain Crissa. I understand Critical Race Theory; I just don't subscribe to it.
 
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Tinker71

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Let's be honest here, ol' Pete has little to no clue on what he is talking about. But honestly, my answer would make it so political.

I saw a few videos on the Utubes on how interstates were constructed. Unfortunately, we have a president that supports segregation and is extremely racist (given his track record of 80 years of doing nothing but being super racist), so I highly doubt jackcrap that anything would change. Highways were intentionally built through poor communities, because A) The land was dirt cheap, B) It was politically motivated by a certain messed up and racist political party C) the Government was too dang lazy to implement more miles on the highways to avoid cutting through poor neighborhoods (seriously, majority of the dang highways & interstates are kinda straight, no curves, nothin, just bland and boring, but makes a great drag stripe).

However, what even pisses me off, is we have toll roads where the government is still adding additional toll booths, making it a total cash grab. Is there any benefits for adding additional toll booths? HECK NO, otherthan finding more ways to make the common hard-working man poorer. I swear, turnpikes and toll roads are excessively unsafe.
Aren't toll roads a free market conservative low tax approach? Usually the builder gets a guaranteed return in exchange for fronting the cash. (even though the people are really on the hook anyway) I think we end up paying more in the end.....but our taxes look lower and the government looks smaller so the politician looks good.
 

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