Tesla strikes now (4680, tabless,dry electrode, LFP & LiNi) while Toyota waits for Godot (solid state battery)

firsttruck

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Toyota solid state battery was supposed to be announced by 2020 July. Still waiting for Toyota

Solid-state batteries show promise
November 24, 2019
When the gull-wing doors raised on the swoopy Lexus LF-30 Electrified concept car during its Tokyo Motor Show debut late last month (2019 Oct), two words in bright blue letters could be seen on the car's threshold: "Solid State."
It was further evidence that Toyota is on track to keep a promise it made in 2017 to have solid-state batteries on the road by the mid-2020s.
https://www.autonews.com/shift/solid-state-batteries-show-promise

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How realistic is it to commercialize all-solid-state batteries for the EV market?
EVsmart blog
by Ryuichi Kino
2019 Dec 3
Original post; ‘電気自動車の進化に必須といわれる「全固体電池」は実用化できない?‘
https://blog.evsmart.net/english-co...-all-solid-state-batteries-for-the-ev-market/

At the Tokyo Motor Show in 2017, Toyota announced that they would commericalize all-solid-state battery technology for EVs by early 2020s. Since then, all-solid-state batteries have been considered a crucial component in the evolution of the EV industry.
However, can we rely upon this technology as much as Toyota claims?
To answer this question, I interviewed Mr. Toru Amazutsumi, a specialist in the field of battery research.

How realistic is it to commercialize all-solid-state batteries for the EV market?How realistic is it to commercialize all-solid-state batteries for the EV market?

“There is nothing good about all-solid-state batteries.”

I met Mr Amazutsumi at Awaji island, located near Kobe. Driving there in a Tesla Model 3, I had originally planned to discuss lithium ion batteries, but the intriguing topic of all-solid-state batteries became the main theme of our talk.

Mr. Amazutsumi used to work for Sanyo Electric, where he led development of lithium ion batteries, a technology later employed by Tesla in their EVs. He left Sanyo Electric in 2010 to establish his own company, Amaz Techno-consultant, based in Awaji island. This company offers consulting services for the entire process of battery development, from materials to production.

Toru Amazutsumi
Founder of Amaz Techno-consultant, LLC.
MSc in Inorganic industrial chemistry
PhD in Electrochemical engineering
He has worked in battery development throughout his career. While was working for SANYO, he was responsible for early contracts to provide lithium ion batteries to Tesla.


What is the advantage of all-solid-state batteries?

All-solid-state batteries is a hot topic in the EV industry today, and particularly in Japan. Toyota most recently mentioned it at their technology conference in June 2019, a few years after their earlier major announcement in 2017. In September, Toyota revealed that it would provide electrified personal mobility vehicles, powered with all-solid-state batteries, at the Tokyo 2020 Olympics.

Toyota’s plan has motivated the New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization (NEDO) to fund a related public project, investing 10 billion yen (9 million US dollars) between 2018 to 2022.

With both public and private sectors in Japan supporting this technology, and recent media reports praising all-solid-state batteries as a safer and more efficient form of battery, there must be clear advantages to its widespread adoption.

What does Mr. Amazutsumi think?

───What aspects of all-solid-state batteries make them superior?
“It is not determined that they are superior to others. There are no specific explanations as to why it is a better solution.”

───What?
“Everybody thinks all-solid-state batteries are excellent because of of Toyota’s recent claims, right? I would interpret Toyota is trying to say they cannot produce useable EVs unless they develop all-solid-state batteries. I think this is their excuse to procrastinate producing EVs. Nobody has given any specific explanations why all-solid-state batteries are good. Everybody knows Toyota is a great car manufacture, but they are not a great battery manufacture.”

───I hear that batteries become lighter?
“Why do you think they become lighter?”

───Because energy density increases.
“How can it increase? There is no reason for that. It can decrease, but not increase. Solid substances have heavier relative density to liquid substances.”

───Do you mean, nothing changes if other materials such as electrodes are the same?
“That’s right. For instance, there is the claim that all-solid-state electrolytes permit the use of cathode/anode active materials that have higher energy density, in which case ‘energy density is increased’. But this is not plausible. There is no way energy density gets increased only because electrolyte is changed to solid from liquid. Electrolytes cannot change capacitance.”
Mr. Amazutsumi appeared at a seminar in 2016 titled ‘The frontline of all-solid-state batteries’ alongside with a Nobel prize winner Akira Yoshino. His talk shared the same theme as this interview.
Solid-state batteries were one of main objects in research 30 years ago

I was slightly shocked to hear his criticisms but, even for an amateur like myself, he makes a convincing point. First of all, all-solid-state batteries are not a new technology.

“Everyone thinks all-solid-state batteries is a new technology. However, development of it was a leading object for battery researchers about 30 years ago. All researchers in my generation have experience in solid-state electrolyte technology.

All-solid-state batteries with small capacities have existed for a long time. For example, they are used for pacemakers, used to treat abnormal heart rhythms. As pacemakers are inserted inside human bodies, liquid should not leak at any cost. That was 30 years ago.”

Mr. Amazutsumi also thinks the name ‘all-solid-state’ is slightly strange.

“Research on all-solid-state batteries has scaled down since Sony released a lithium polymer battery with has a gel-state electrolyte (Sony has since sold its battery department to Murata manufacturing Co, Ltd in 2017). More than a half of the existing solid-state batteries in the market now are polymer batteries. Is polymer not a solid substance? If you define polymer as solid-state, it has already spread into the market. One example, recently released by Kyocera, is classified as a “semi-solid lithium ion battery.”

The lithium polymer batteries from Sony prevented liquid leakage by using gel-state electrolyte, also they did not use metal for the battery exterior in order to make products smaller and lighter.

Moreover, the electrodes of Kyocera’s batteries utilize a material similar to clay, which was invented by American start-up 24M, and which 24M claims are a semi solid material.

24M Partner Kyocera to Validate Process for Mass Production

Mr. Amazutsumi further points out:
“I personally think lithium polymer batteries from Sony can be defined as solid-state batteries. Though it is not all-solid state, my point is that whether liquid or solid state, it doesn’t make that much difference. Furthermore, Sony made polymer batteries in a laminated form. They claimed that this technology was made possible because it was in solid state. However, laminated batteries nowadays contain not solid but liquid electrolyte. This means solid-state is not an advantage anymore. Unless researchers find a clear advantage, I don’t see why it has to be solid-state.”
There are barely any people pointing out problems with it

Mr. Amazutsumi suggests the biggest problem with all solid-state batteries as follows.

“The biggest problem with all-solid-state batteries is how you secure and maintain contact area between solid surfaces. Liquid electrolyte provides a big contact surface for electrode. On the other hand, solid electrolyte makes it difficult. Nobody focuses on this issue. People talk about only electrolyte but not interface.”

“A researcher of Tokyo Institute of Technology claims that (solid-state) electrolyte has higher conductivity, but this is not an issue here. Electrolyte, cathode and anode together determine how they transfer ions. Contact area must be maintained for ions to travel, and at this point, you must consider the mass production of these batteries. For example, Hitachi Zosen Corporation has tried to press solid surfaces with high pressure to expand contact area. However, the energy density still remains too low for commercial use. This is the reality.”

This June, Murata Manufacturing announced that they invented all-solid-state batteries with the biggest capacity in the industry. Its usage is for small goods such as wearable devices but not products with big capacities and output like EVs.

“In the lab, they are making very thin batteries with the thickness of several micrometers. It is like an evaporation coating of electrolyte. They are not useful unless they stay that thin. I asked how they could attempt mass production with much bigger capacities, and their answer was to build thousands of layers. That is impossible since efficiency would be poor, and the energy density actually decreases.”

“Cathode/anode electrodes of battery expand when they are charged and shrink when discharged. If its electrolyte is solid, it cannot expand/shrink well. Therefore, while I wouldn’t say all-solid-state batteries are impossible, since they are produced in the lab, there have been insurmountable challenges in bringing it to a mass production for the last 30 years.”
Mr. Amazutsumi imported a Tesla Model S from the US before its launch in Japan.
Researchers are snatched for this research

Mr. Amazutsumi’s story reminds me of fuel cell vehicles. In a report by the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, the Japanese government expected 50,000 FCVs on its roads by 2010, and 5 million by 2020. As of March 2019, there are only about 3,000 FCVs, and 1/3 them are in Aichi, where Toyota is based. It turns out that FCVs have various issues, such as the endurance of fuel cell stack, and the establishment of infrastructure, which have not been resolved in the past 20 years. I personally thought the ambition behind FCV was great, but such unrealistic expectations can lead society in the wrong direction.

As a researcher, Mr. Amazutsumi worries that the field of all-solid-state batteries attracts too many researchers due to the accumulation of public interest and funding.

“Toyota can carry out research on all-solid-state batteries as much as they want by themselves. But it becomes a problem when they involve others, including valued researchers. Many Japanese battery researchers have shifted into all-solid-state batteries in fact. I hear more and more people talking about it at the annual battery conference by The Electrochemical Society of Japan in recent years.”

“It is often said that all-solid-state batteries are safer, but it does not mean that liquid lithium ion batteries are unsafe. They are already sufficient, so who wants to buy more expensive, lower quality batteries like all-solid-state?”

“I believe that Toyota cannot commit to a single technology in their search for a next-generation battery solution, so they are trying a variety of experiments. Indeed, I think it is important to maintain basic research in lithium ion batteries and all-solid-state batteries. However, it is irresponsible to talk as if they could be expanded to mass production in the near future. There are few researchers in the battery field, and they are highly influenced by Toyota. Meanwhile, important research, such as the material development of cathodes, is being neglected. As Toyota is very influential, I would like them to focus on more realistic matters. I feel they are dragging down the entire battery research field in Japan.”

I feel Mr.Amazutsumi’s harsh criticism should be widely discussed.

The Japanese have been gripped by all-state-batteries fever. For instance, a research company Fuji Keizai, based in Tokyo, reported that the market size of all-solid-state batteries was 2.1 billion yen (19 million US dollars) in 2018, and is expected to grow to 2,787 billion yen (25.6 billion US dollars) in 2035.

Toyota has not unveiled in detail how far their research in all-solid-state batteries has advanced. It would be great if they were to announce a significant development that can convince even Mr. Amazutsumi. However, according to him, who has devoted his entire working life to battery research, there is neither a clear advantage, nor a pathway to mass production, of all-solid-state batteries in the EV industry.

It is nice to talk about dreams, but it is crucial to maintain realistic expectations. I hope all-solid-state batteries do not end up as chaotic as‘A Midsummer Night’s Dream’.


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Why you should read "Waiting For Godot"?
TED-Ed
Iseult Gillespie
Oct 15, 2018


Waiting for Godot (/ˈɡɒdoʊ/ GOD-oh)[1] is a play by Samuel Beckett in which two characters, Vladimir (Didi) and Estragon (Gogo), engage in a variety of discussions and encounters while awaiting Godot, who never arrives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot


Samuel Beckett's Waiting for Godot with English & Arabic Subtitles
456,825 views
Jul 19, 2015
Shereen Hamdy


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T3slaDad

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That's an excellent interview, thanks for posting!! It really gives context to where SS batteries are in comparison to other technologies.

One thing that I also want mentioned was Toyota's view on EVs. Unfortunately, they are most interested in revenue and least interested in EV progress. They have even publically stated that they do not make EVs because they only have access to so much battery storage, and they feel it best to create 40-50x the amount of hybrids instead. Oh, and their ads are shamelessly bashing on EVs while promoting hybrids, calling them the vehicle of the future.

I used to be a Toyota fan, true blue, through and through, but I'm getting disgusted by their lack of progress lately. Not just with EVs, but in their car tech in general; it's like they are just riding on the name and doing just enough to keep people happy.

Investing a few million into EV tech while pouring billions into hydrogen tech is not the best PR move in today's age, either. It's being proven that people are starting to want EVs and not other fuel source vehicles. Hydrogen (as much as I love it) is extremely flammable and combustible, making station-level storage and operation an extremely delicate and sensitive topic (reference the latest station explosion's blast radius in Europe). It's not exactly the fuel source I would prefer to be driving next to on the highway, or worse, putting my butt on top of while driving. Why not put more funding, discussion and reserach into hydrogen-on-demand (HHO) systems that are much safer and provide amazing benefits to normal gas-powered cars if you're going to go the hydrogen route??

Ok, off my soap box. Good article, good topic, I can't wait to hear others' responses.
 
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firsttruck

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Why not put more funding, discussion and reserach into hydrogen-on-demand (HHO) systems that are much safer and provide amazing benefits to normal gas-powered cars if you're going to go the hydrogen route??
HHO is way to make hydrogen in a real green clean manner. But HHO does not solve the energy inefficiency & economic issue (2-3 times more expense than battery systems). Better to put the 95% of energy battery than loss over 50% using hydrogen systems.

Compare progress in creating fueling infrastructure over last 20 years.

Tesla, EVgo, Electrify America, ChargePoint, and other brands have grown over 25,000 public charger locations with total 78,500 charging outlets and almost 25,000 charging stations for BEVs & PHEVs.

Toyota, Honda, hydrogen supporters have made basically ZERO progress in having stations available to public.
 
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ajdelange

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But HHO does not solve the energy inefficiency & economic issue (2-3 times more expense than battery systems). Better to put the 95% of energy battery than loss over 50% using hydrogen systems.
I think hydrogen is a dead horse for consumer vehicles but think a bit more about the energy inefficiency. Full sunlight delivers 1 kW to each meter of the earths surface it strikes. Put a solar panel over that square meter and you can convert about 200 W of that into electricity. Use that to hydrolyze water. Let's say only 50% of that goes into stored energy and the rest is lost as heat. Thus the square meter delivers 900 watts of heat to the ground but 100W into a usable fuel. Who cares that 90% of what the sun delivered was "wasted"? It would be "wasted" anyway. Thus the inefficiency of water hydrolysis is not at issue (and it is improving). What is at issue, of course, is the capital expense of the solar panel and associated electronics and that translates, through amortization, into the cost of the electricity. The effective cost of solar electricity keeps coming down. Someday hydrogen will be competitive as a fuel but never, probably, for cars and small trucks,
 

CappyJax

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That's an excellent interview, thanks for posting!! It really gives context to where SS batteries are in comparison to other technologies.

One thing that I also want mentioned was Toyota's view on EVs. Unfortunately, they are most interested in revenue and least interested in EV progress. They have even publically stated that they do not make EVs because they only have access to so much battery storage, and they feel it best to create 40-50x the amount of hybrids instead. Oh, and their ads are shamelessly bashing on EVs while promoting hybrids, calling them the vehicle of the future.

I used to be a Toyota fan, true blue, through and through, but I'm getting disgusted by their lack of progress lately. Not just with EVs, but in their car tech in general; it's like they are just riding on the name and doing just enough to keep people happy.

Investing a few million into EV tech while pouring billions into hydrogen tech is not the best PR move in today's age, either. It's being proven that people are starting to want EVs and not other fuel source vehicles. Hydrogen (as much as I love it) is extremely flammable and combustible, making station-level storage and operation an extremely delicate and sensitive topic (reference the latest station explosion's blast radius in Europe). It's not exactly the fuel source I would prefer to be driving next to on the highway, or worse, putting my butt on top of while driving. Why not put more funding, discussion and reserach into hydrogen-on-demand (HHO) systems that are much safer and provide amazing benefits to normal gas-powered cars if you're going to go the hydrogen route??

Ok, off my soap box. Good article, good topic, I can't wait to hear others' responses.
Hydrogen is currently the safest form of energy storage for vehicles. The tanks used are so stout, that any crash violent enough to cause a rupture would have killed the occupants. And if it is punctured, the hydrogen escapes at a very fast rate and then rises into the atmosphere. When a liquid or propane fuel tank is punctured, the fuel pools. When a battery is punctured, the electrolyte burns until there is none left.

Accidents will happen regardless of the fuel used. There are many gasoline fuel station explosions every year. It can't be avoided.

HHO does reduce emissions, but it doesn't increase fuel mileage.

Having said this, FCV are not economically practical. They are merely big oils attempt to maintain consumer dependancy. BEV's allow for people to escape that dependency with solar, and that would end them.
 

97trophy

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Don't underestimate Toyota....they may big fans of Sun Tzu. “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
 

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