Toyota BZ4X BEV with steer-by-wire by mid 2022, maybe Tesla add steer-by-wire to Cybertruck?

firsttruck

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Now we have a global shipping timeline for Toyota BZ4X BEV with steer-by-wire system.

Toyota’s new electric SUV has a solar roof and a steering yoke like Tesla
The first all-electric vehicle from the Japanese automaker
By Andrew J. [email protected] Oct 29, 2021
https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/29/22752539/toyota-bz4x-electric-suv-steering-yoke-solar-roof

.....
The steering yoke, which Toyota describes as having a “wing-shape,” employs a steer-by-wire system, where there is no mechanical connection between the steering wheel and tires. The yoke only needs to turn up to 150 degrees from side to side and the driver doesn’t ever need to remove their hands. This will eliminate the need to change grips when steering, which the company argues will make U-turns and other maneuvers easier.

....
The BZ4X will be built on a flexible platform that it developed in partnership with fellow Japanese automaker Subaru. (Toyota currently owns a small stake in Subaru.) The e-TNGA platform will enable several characteristics, including a steer-by-wire system, all-wheel drive, improved visibility, and a regenerative braking system that is common among electric vehicles. Toyota said the BZ4X would be released globally by the middle of 2022.


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Details of All-New bZ4X BEV Announced | Toyota
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/36254760.html



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Kevinb2

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I thought Toyota was lobbying against BEVs and trying to make their hybrids a product for as long as possible?
 

Crissa

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I thought Toyota was lobbying against BEVs and trying to make their hybrids a product for as long as possible?
That doesn't stop them from trying to catch up on the other side, does it? Gas cars are profitable, developing new cars needs lots of cash thrown at it.

-Crissa
 


prl99

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Has anyone actually seen the steering linkage on the CT? Do other Teslas use steer-by-wire or do they still use steering linkage? Same with brakes. I would think by now Teslas would not be using direct mechanical linkage to do much of anything. When I say mechanical linkage I mean direct control of an item using a piece of hardware to push, pull or turn something else without anything in between. I'm sure Teslas power pedal simply drives a potentiometer-based motor speed system. Brakes are also controlled by the computer so I don't see the brake pedal directly pushing hydraulics (yes/no?). A steering post would go right through the frunk and isn't necessary when you have computer-controlled (FSB) hydraulics precisely handling all steering. I absolutely don't see the steering yoke controlling rear wheel turning.
 

prl99

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I thought Toyota was lobbying against BEVs and trying to make their hybrids a product for as long as possible?
They are lobbying against not allowing plug-in hybrids to be counted as electric vehicles in Biden's EV credit legislation. Mr. Toyoda does not like the idea of totally retooling the #1 (or #2) automobile company in the world. He continues to lobby against real EVs because, as Crissa says, he needs to stay in business and knows he'll lose lots of money converting to EVs before he actually starts making money. The only way he'll make money on EVs is to sell them at a loss to try and keep customers (like me, but I've bought my last Toyota). With Subaru working with Toyota on the BZ4X, I can see them having a quicker time converting, especially in certain regions where they sell their (AWD-only) vehicles, like the Pacific Northwest. I don't see Subaru selling a RWD-only BZ4X (haven't checked the latest info on the BZ4X to see if it's AWD-only).
 

m.delmed129

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Has anyone actually seen the steering linkage on the CT? Do other Teslas use steer-by-wire or do they still use steering linkage? Same with brakes. I would think by now Teslas would not be using direct mechanical linkage to do much of anything. When I say mechanical linkage I mean direct control of an item using a piece of hardware to push, pull or turn something else without anything in between. I'm sure Teslas power pedal simply drives a potentiometer-based motor speed system. Brakes are also controlled by the computer so I don't see the brake pedal directly pushing hydraulics (yes/no?). A steering post would go right through the frunk and isn't necessary when you have computer-controlled (FSB) hydraulics precisely handling all steering. I absolutely don't see the steering yoke controlling rear wheel turning.
Tesla has not yet developed steer by wire, they use traditional linkage and hardware. They also leverage servo for the autopilot function. Brakes are hydraulic, as usual.
 

Bill906

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So, I’m guessing the biggest reason for not doing steer by wire is safety. If something goes wrong at highway speeds and the wheels turn unexpectedly that would be bad. If that is the reason I have a new question, won’t half of the CT’s 4-wheel steering be steer by wire? I would be extremely surprised if the rear wheels are a mechnical link to the yoke. Assuming the rear wheels are steer by wire (a very safe assumption in my opinion) should the rear wheels turn unexpectedly due to a steer by wire malfunction it would still be bad. One thought is maybe at a certain speed there’s a mechanical lock that holds the rear wheels pointed straight. That could be considered safer, but would negate the advantages 4-wheel steering has on lane changes.

Otherwise, if Tesla engineered the rear wheel steering to be a safe steer by wire system by adding checks, redundancies etc. why can’t they use the same safety engineered steer by wire system to the front wheels?

Thoughts?
 


prl99

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Tesla has not yet developed steer by wire, they use traditional linkage and hardware. They also leverage servo for the autopilot function. Brakes are hydraulic, as usual.
So hydraulic brakes with any kind of servo-type thing to slow the vehicle down or is that all controlled by the motor(s)?

Rack and pinion steering? Just noticed this thread showing up below, https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/reasons-for-drive-by-wire.2462/ They talk about robotaxis requiring something other than hand turned steering wheels. I also have to wonder whether FSD will work better using steer-by-wire instead of servos connected--and fighting with--people overriding FSB. I know fly-by-wire is how all jets work nowadays (yes??) so it's a proven technology but I'm sure some drivers will want the feeling of controlling the linkage on their own. Maybe not most Tesla drivers but I assume new Tesla drivers buying the CT.
 
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firsttruck

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So, I’m guessing the biggest reason for not doing steer by wire is safety. If something goes wrong at highway speeds and the wheels turn unexpectedly that would be bad.
......
Thoughts?
"by-wire" tech can be extreme reliable.

Most modern airliners use a similar but even more extensive system that is by wire and has computer control of how far each control is allowed to move depending on flight orientation in the air.

Airline travel is much safer than auto and airlines travel in much more extreme weather conditions than most any auto on Earth.

Largest passenger airliner (Airbus A380) can carry more than 500 people.


If a vehicle is controlled by a FSD computer anyway using reliable "by-wire" tech does not materially lower the risk of failure.

Actual steering wheel, column, & mechanical controls has risks to. One is in a crash event the mechanical controls sometimes become things that impale driver/passengers.


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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire#History


.....
In 1972, the first digital fly-by-wire fixed-wing aircraft without a mechanical backup[17] to take to the air was an F-8 Crusader, which had been modified electronically by NASA of the United States as a test aircraft; the F-8 used the Apollo guidance, navigation and control hardware.[18]

The Airbus A320 began service in 1988 as the first airliner with digital fly-by-wire controls.


.....
Further developments

Fly-by-optics

Fly-by-optics is sometimes used instead of fly-by-wire because it offers a higher data transfer rate, immunity to electromagnetic interference and lighter weight. In most cases, the cables are just changed from electrical to optical fiber cables. Sometimes it is referred to as "fly-by-light" due to its use of fiber optics. The data generated by the software and interpreted by the controller remain the same.[citation needed] Fly-by-light has the effect of decreasing electro-magnetic disturbances to sensors in comparison to more common fly-by-wire control systems. The Kawasaki P-1 is the first production aircraft in the world to be equipped with such a flight control system.[32]

Power-by-wire

Having eliminated the mechanical transmission circuits in fly-by-wire flight control systems, the next step is to eliminate the bulky and heavy hydraulic circuits. The hydraulic circuit is replaced by an electrical power circuit. The power circuits power electrical or self-contained electrohydraulic actuators that are controlled by the digital flight control computers. All benefits of digital fly-by-wire are retained since the power-by-wire components are strictly complementary to the fly-by-wire components.

The biggest benefits are weight savings, the possibility of redundant power circuits and tighter integration between the aircraft flight control systems and its avionics systems. The absence of hydraulics greatly reduces maintenance costs. This system is used in the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II and in Airbus A380 backup flight controls. The Boeing 787 and Airbus A350 also incorporate electrically powered backup flight controls which remain operational even in the event of a total loss of hydraulic power.[33]


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firsttruck

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Agreed.

I was simply stating why I think Tesla is not using fly by wire. If you do not believe safety is the reason, what is your theory?

Biggest hurdle is U.S. government regulation.

Many other countries allow side cameras to replace side mirrors and that camera tech is old now yet still not allowed in U.S. :-(

There are suppliers out there if Tesla wants to buy steer-by-wire

Street-legal steer-by-wire system from Schaeffler Paravan
https://www.schaeffler-paravan.de/en/products/space-drive-system/steer-by-wire/

Schaeffler AG - Drive-by-wire technology
https://www.schaeffler.com/content....ce/steer_by_wire_technology/steer_by_wire.jsp


By-Wire Cars Turn the Corner
Replacing a car’s hydraulic systems with wires, microcontrollers, and computers promises better safety and handling — but will drivers buy it?
By Elizabeth Bretz
02 Apr 2001
https://spectrum.ieee.org/bywire-cars-turn-the-corner

 

 
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