Trailer towing Range

[Bkuz370]

Has anyone seen anything on the range
of the cyber truck towing a trailer?
I am waiting since 2019 as with many others, But i tow a trailer often on longer trips, But concerned about the range of the CT when pulling a trailer??
I ordered the highest model- guessing it’s the tri motor w 500 mile range (???)
i am hoping that the range won’t be cut in half pulling a 5000lb trailer-
Anyone have any insight on this ???
Hopefully we start getting finally order detail emails soon-
Thanks all

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[Crissa]

Has anyone seen anything on the range
of the cyber truck towing a trailer?
I am waiting since 2019 as with many others, But i tow a trailer often on longer trips, But concerned about the range of the CT when pulling a trailer??
I ordered the highest model- guessing it’s the tri motor w 500 mile range (???)
i am hoping that the range won’t be cut in half pulling a 5000lb trailer-
Anyone have any insight on this ???
Hopefully we start getting finally order detail emails soon-
Thanks all

A) It's not so much the weight, it's the aerodynamics and speed.
B) There's no way around it: Towing will halve range or so. This is just physics.

It does this on your ICE truck, too. You just either don't pay attention to range, or an ICE wastes so much power just idling that losses of range from going faster is just hidden. It seems to balance out. But your truck did lose range towing.

-Crissa

 

[Firetruck41]

Safest bet until there are real world tests, is 1/3 to 1/2 of normal range, when towing

 

[HaulingAss]

Safest bet until there are real world tests, is 1/3 to 1/2 of normal range, when towing

To be clear, it's not so much the tow vehicle that has to be range tested, it's the trailer you want to tow. Trailers of various types vary widely in the amount of energy it takes to haul them through the atmosphere at highway speeds. In general, wider and taller trailers that are boxy in shape will require the most additional energy. The typical travel trailer with air conditioner on the roof, awnings on the roof edges, and a big, flat rear end are going to be amongst the worse. It's almost like travel trailers were designed to increase demand for oil.

Society has been subsidizing RV'ers for decades through multi-billion-dollar subsidies to the oil and gas industries which have allowed cheap gas and diesel making towing large RVs long-distances artificially affordable for people of modest resources. We have also been subsidizing RV'ers by looking the other way when it comes to the present and future costs of global climate change and sea level rise that their activities entail. Other unaccounted for costs of energy consumption relate to the health impacts of activities requiring huge amounts of oil. These impacts come both from tailpipe emissions and the upstream oil extraction and refining processes. Towing using electricity doesn't eliminate all of those impacts, but the higher efficiency of electric motors, and the opportunity to power them using less impactful energy sources does reduce the health and environmental impacts. The impacts are still there, they are just much smaller and will become smaller over time as the grid makes the transition to renewable sources.

There is some aerodynamic interaction of the tow vehicle with any given trailer that must accounted for, but no one is ever going to test every single combination of vehicle and trailer so, from a practical matter, a general estimation should be made based upon the battery size of the vehicle and the size and shape of the trailer with a smaller component added for the weight of the trailer. The speed at which you tow at will greatly affect the estimation as well. Towing at 60 mph instead of 70 mph will have a huge beneficial impact on the energy required, similar to optimizing the shape of the trailer to minimize drag. Doing both is even better. A huge improvement in energy consumption over a traditional travel trailer are the ones that collapse to the same height of the tow vehicle (hard-sided trailers that extend upwards at the destination or tent-trailers).

The least energy intensive solution is to minimize the travel distance and the size of the load. I've never understood the concept of hauling large "travel" trailers great distances at highway speeds. Bringing a big home with you, everywhere you go, just seems silly in the extreme to my sensibilities. That said, it can make sense for visiting more local areas seasonally. When I want to experience the large wide-open spaces of the American West, I do it in an aerodynamic car (if I have family members with me) and on a motorcycle if I am solo or travelling with other friends on motorcycles. I've found life is much better when I'm not trying to bring a bedroom, bathroom and full kitchen with me, everywhere I go. Your energy needs skyrocket when you want to bring everything with you.

 

[PilotPete]

A) It's not so much the weight, it's the aerodynamics and speed.
B) There's no way around it: Towing will halve range or so. This is just physics.

It does this on your ICE truck, too. You just either don't pay attention to range. And an ICE wastes so much power just idling that going so wastes range, too. It seems to balance out. But your truck did lose range towing.

-Crissa

Not being a truck, towing, or RV kinda guy, I have a question along these lines. If a vehicle gets X range from its tank/battery, and there is a Y% penalty for towing a given trailer. Shouldn’t the penalty be the same for ICE or EV? Same aero, same amount of energy required. Sure, with ICE you have “in/out of power band” issues with underpowered tow vehicles, but it would seem the penalty there would be worse on an ICE vehicle. I thought I read that someone on a thread said EVs were worse at towing penalty, but I don’t see why. Please enlighten me.

 

[TyPope]

Has anyone seen anything on the range
of the cyber truck towing a trailer?
I am waiting since 2019 as with many others, But i tow a trailer often on longer trips, But concerned about the range of the CT when pulling a trailer??
I ordered the highest model- guessing it’s the tri motor w 500 mile range (???)
i am hoping that the range won’t be cut in half pulling a 5000lb trailer-
Anyone have any insight on this ???
Hopefully we start getting finally order detail emails soon-
Thanks all

While we don't know the actual battery size and range of the Cybertruck, we can make some good guesses based on the efficiencies of other Teslas and some good old physics work. I'll copy my post here so you don't have to go link-hopping.

PHYSICS IS PHYSICS. It takes a set amount of energy to move a mass.
You can just read the bold Blue at the bottom if you don't want to know the physics behind the assessment.

Here are the calculations based on physics:

Physics dictates some things:
Pulling a 14,000# trailer with a frontal area of 60^2 feet 100 miles with 1 mile of positive elevation change at 75 mph and assuming the CT and passengers weighs 6,500# and a drag coefficient of 0.30 will take 170.5 KwH. That same trip at 65 mph takes 145.8 KwH. That's a lot of battery for just 100 miles of range towing a really heavy trailer. But, it is also going uphill a LOT. Let's look at towing without elevation change because most people make round trips so the downhill leg makes up for the uphill leg a lot.

Spoiler: Spoiler Alert

You won't be towing a heavy trailer very far between charges, unfortunately.

Good news? If you aren't towing uphill (ie not going up in elevation 1 mile),
Going 75 mph:
You'd consume 170.5 KwH minus the 40.8 KwH gravity penalty which means it would take 129.7 KwH at 75 mph to pull that trailer 100 miles with no elevation change and you can tow 154 miles on a full battery.

Going 65 mph:
You'd consume 145.8 KwH minus the 40.8 KwH gravity penalty which means it would take 105 KwH at 60 mph to pull that trailer 100 miles with no elevation change and you can tow 190 miles on a full battery.

There. I mathed it for everyone.

Obviously, without a 14,000# trailer, its aero, rolling resistance, and gravity penalty, you get 500 miles of range. So, there's a sliding "Miles per full battery" that will run between 500 miles (not towing) and 190 miles towing 14,000# at 65mph.

Since you shouldn't pull MORE than the 14,000# and will NEVER pull less than zero pounds, physics shows that your range will be always fall between 190 and 500 miles at 65 mph.
The 190 mile range is for a 14,000# trailer being pulled at 65 mph flat. (assuming 200kwh battery)
The 500 mile range would be pulling nothing at 65 mph flat. (assuming 200kwh battery)

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STOP READING HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT MORE PHYSICS IN YOUR LIFE!
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some calculations for the technical inclined:
Aero = 1/2 (0.002377) (80.667)^2 (0.4) (40) = 123.74 Ft Pounds, or (123.74)(0.001989) = 24.61 KwH
That's (0.5) x (coefficient of air times velocity in feet squared) x (drag coefficient) x (surface area of entire system) ---- surface area is if you looked at the CT and trailer head on and figured the size hole it would punch through a wall as it drove through...

Rolling resistance =Total weight x 0.015 = 13,500(0.015)(0.001989) = 40.27 KwH
That is (weight) x (coefficient of rolling resistance of a tire on pavement)

Gravity: 0 (only comes into effect when traveling UP HILL on average)

Add those three forces together and you get 64.88 KwH to take a 7,000 pound trailer 100 miles.

You'd be able to drive 324 miles with that 7,000 pound trailer and 500 pounds of occupants if you maintain 55 mph and we assume a 200 KwH battery.

 

[BigAl]

A) It's not so much the weight, it's the aerodynamics and speed.
B) There's no way around it: Towing will halve range or so. This is just physics.

It does this on your ICE truck, too. You just either don't pay attention to range. And an ICE wastes so much power just idling that going so wastes range, too. It seems to balance out. But your truck did lose range towing.

-Crissa

I agree… and welcome back Crissa! You’ve been hiding for a few.

 

[Bkuz370]

That was an awesome physics lesson and i greatly appreciate it- Thank you
About my current Ice vehicle- 07 avalanche- tow a trailer often and mileage only decreases by approximately 2-3 MPG - i also don’t floor it and being an x Semi Driver - i do read the traffic and roadways to avoid excessive braking and maintain positive forward momentum - Thank you for the lesson… I am hopeful that my driving habits will keep my range above 350 towing w a 500 full range - time w tell -
Thanks again

 

[Crissa]

Not being a truck, towing, or RV kinda guy, I have a question along these lines. If a vehicle gets X range from its tank/battery, and there is a Y% penalty for towing a given trailer. Shouldn’t the penalty be the same for ICE or EV? Same aero, same amount of energy required. Sure, with ICE you have “in/out of power band” issues with underpowered tow vehicles, but it would seem the penalty there would be worse on an ICE vehicle. I thought I read that someone on a thread said EVs were worse at towing penalty, but I don’t see why. Please enlighten me.

I don't either, but I have friends that do. Also... I love engineering.

The penalty is the same.

But, an EV doesn't waste energy while it's not moving. An ICE vehicle does.

So the curve of range from a full battery/tank at different speed is different between them.

There's also a little variation from the wake of the towing vehicle, it might already waste the energy displacing air that adding the trailer won't change. This is why the penalty for very small trailers - think pulling a motorcycle trailer behind a car - is much less than it otherwise would be.

I agree… and welcome back Crissa! You’ve been hiding for a few.

I'm on a road trip! Not alot of internet out in the deep mountains. This last week has been chilling at the beach, but the prior week was camping at six thousand feet, hunting various semi-precious gems and minerals, and just enoying the drives between mining sites. The week before that was in the city, but my allergies were so bad I spent about half of it unconscious in bed.

-Crissa

 

[C T Rick]

It also depends on traffic. Out here my average speed for the last 15 years is a whopping 11 mph. Realize that takes into account LOs Angeles traffic, red lights, stop signs and speed bumps. I gave up my big jetting trailers for many reasons and purchased a utility work trailer that is much lighter and multi purpose.
It’s the stop and go that kills the mileage more than anything. My sprinter diesel 3500 gets 12 mpg. And my Nissan 3500 NG gas gets 6 mpg. Realize at close to 9000 # loaded up with real world LA driving, the stop and go is the reason for poor mileage, more so with the energy required to start the load.

on the highway, I’ve seen the Nissan register 13 mpg while going downhill. I’ve never gone 200 miles on a tank of gas. Right now regular is $4.69 and diesel is approx $5.29.

My Traverse is slightly better at anywhere from 11- 22 mpg city highway.

Traffic is the deal breaker, mixed with weight. Gave up s manual trans back in the early 80’s.

So the CT has to be better than any and everything I presently drive.

Fortunately, my annual mileage is under 6k combined between the 3 vehicles. Welcome to LA.
Rick

 

[newjobplease]

That was an awesome physics lesson and i greatly appreciate it- Thank you
About my current Ice vehicle- 07 avalanche- tow a trailer often and mileage only decreases by approximately 2-3 MPG - i also don’t floor it and being an x Semi Driver - i do read the traffic and roadways to avoid excessive braking and maintain positive forward momentum - Thank you for the lesson… I am hopeful that my driving habits will keep my range above 350 towing w a 500 full range - time w tell -
Thanks again

It won't be above 350 towing.

 

[Crissa]

EVs aren't happy about stop and go, but...

...They don't waste much battery at idle. AAA estimates that the average vehicle wastes a gallon of gas for every hour idling. The bigger the truck, the more.

A Model 3 can sit at full idle - holding a temperature - for three days before consuming all the battery. My Mazda 3 probably wouldn't make it half a day.

When riding my Zero, heavy traffic increases my range substantially.

-Crissa

 

[fhteagle]

Shouldn’t the penalty be the same for ICE or EV?

They should be largely similar, but there are a couple of extra variables. ICE engines have a concept of Brake (horsepower) Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC). Depending on the engine, this is rarely a perfectly linear relationship between "power produced" and "fuel consumed". There may be ways to coax double the power out of the same engine without perfectly doubling fuel consumption. Turbochargers, gearing, valve timing, cylinder deactivations, etc may result in better BSFC at deeper into the rated load curve. You're still burning more fuel, but you're getting just a bit more power output for every gram of fuel burned than at lower in the rated load curve. But at some point, the load will be so great, or cooling demands so high that the engine starts dumping extra fuel in just to carry away heat, meaning BSFC falls off pretty high under very high rated load.

EV motors have this as well with efficiency charts, but are usually tuned / geared to be running in the most efficient part of the curve already. Roughly doubling the power output of the electric motor may directly double, or more than double the power consumed by the system with amp losses down the cables, etc.

 

[Space monkey]

If the f150 lightning halves its range while towing, the CT will loose more because it will rely more on aerodynamics to achieve its baseline range. Obviously when towing, aerodynamic advantages are thrown out the window.
I have towed things with our model y, and I tell you first hand that you will be doing a lot of patience training towing with ANY ev.
I think there’s gonna be a lot of disappointment out there when people start hitching up.

 

[DMC-81]

Awesome, informative thread! This is why I hang out here, as opposed to the mindless, sometimes comical social media sites.
My towing use case will be the infrequent hauling of a car trailer, boat, or perhaps a camping trailer.

My towing experience is similar and was approximately 20 years ago. I never measured it, but I learned that fuel mileage took a major hit when towing, and severity was determined by weight.

I'd expect something similar on an EV and won't bother me.
Like was mentioned, it's just physics.

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