Why we here need to pretend to be excited about the Ford F-150 Lightning

HaulingAss

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There is a pretty good reason the F-150 has been the best selling P/U in the U.S. for years so your opinion of Ford trucks doesn't seem to matter much, does it?
I have owned a 2010 F-150 since 2009 and while it might be the best truck available in it's class, that's not saying much. I can hardly wait to sell it to somebody without enough down payment for a Cybertruck so I can drive a truck that is not a series of small incremental improvements from what was available over a century ago!

Yes, I'm ready to replace the last gas vehicle in our household with a pure BEV and it can't get here soon enough.

Last month I replaced our Husqvarna lawn mower with an EGO battery powered mower. It puts the Husky to shame in terms of cutting speed and power, ease of use and quietness. It tears through thick, wet grass that would bring the Husky begging to it's knees. Plus, I'm no longer breathing the stinky and unhealthy fumes as I get my exercise mowing our lawn. One less engine to do an annual oil change on too. No more filling the gas tank every time I want to mow and making trips to the gas station to fill up the gas can either. Now I just need to find a sucker to take our one-year old Husqvarna off our hands. :ROFLMAO:





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HaulingAss

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It doesn't disable the vehicle. As pointed out, without doing any energy saving, a car can power a house form three days. Let alone only the refrigerator.

-Crissa
Eventually it would disable the vehicle - just a matter of time. And, unless you want to leave your family without power when you venture out to get necessities, it's much better to have a dedicated emergency power system with cells designed for stationary storage. Two very different applications.

In an extended outage, as might happen when the "big one" hits, I don't want to have to decide between conserving range and powering the house. Plus, you never know how long the outage will last. Even if the outage is only 24 hours, you don't know that when the outage hits.
 

HaulingAss

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Actual Sandy was very surprised. He said the Mach-E was engineered different from past Fords he has seen. This was first Ford he would compare to a BMW.

So yes, despite Ford selling lots of vehicles, Ford design & quality could be questioned.
Nissan sells a lot too & Nissan quality is not too good.


Mach-E looks promising but there are two key question that need answers
1. Is Ford making a profit on Mach-E?
2. Can Ford delivery in quantity (400K year) instead of 40K?
1) No. Not even close to a profit. Not even with the $7500 buyer tax credit that Tesla buyers don't get anymore.

2) It might be more applicable to ask whether Ford wants to deliver 400K Mach-e's. Why would they if they lose money on each one and are only making them for emission credits so they can continue to sell polluting vehicles without paying for that right?

Make no mistake, Ford is only selling EV's to allow them to continue selling archaic technology as long as possible and in as large numbers as possible. Every EV they sell is about one gas vehicle they don't sell.
 

Crissa

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Eventually it would disable the vehicle - just a matter of time. And, unless you want to leave ...
You leave when your range gets to that point. It's a fairly simple calculation.

And it's no different than when you had a gas car and a gas generator, except instead of only having a couple hours of electricity per gallon and can't use the fuel in your vehicle easily... you have several days of electricity in your vehicle before even needing an alternate source.

-Crissa
 

Luke42

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So, I wouldn't be so 'overly excited' about the F150 Lightening V2G possibilities. Yes, they will gladly tout it as a selling point, because think about it, isn't that what ICE vehicle manufacturers do? They will sell you something they 'think' you will 'want' (but not necessarily what you 'need'). They will gladly even have a slightly shorter battery life, because they think no one will pay attention to that, and it gives them recurring repair business (which is an integral part of their business model). So of course they will tout VG2 in a second if it will slice some sales from Tesla and give them recurring service revenue down the road, even if long term the V2G might not be that practical. On paper (and advertising brochures, web pages), the Ford F150 Lightening V2G sounds great, and many will buy into that advertising narrative. But dreaming and actuating are very different things. Not trying to coin a phrase, but I think "Marketing geniuses thoroughly know, the directions sheep will tend to go". Tesla on the other hand, seems to treat consumers more like intelligent people.
Personally, I'm more interested in V2RV and V2H than V2G.

I could just buy a small propane generator, but I kinda hate small ICE engines and it's likely I won't get the full payoff before I get a truck that can handle the (electrical) load.
 
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Luke42

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Three days powered by a Model 3? ... Possibly if you live in a small house in a place like California, where there is ideal climate more of the time and average monthly electricity usage per household is lowest in the country (even though California residents still pay the highest electricity rates in the country as well).

But for realistic consumption in states using more heat or air conditioning many hours of the day, you can easily expect a small 30 amps of consumption (only 15% of a 200 amp family house electrical service). That usage can easily happen with the air conditioning system, water heater, stove/microwave or laundry washing and drying, along with all the other incidental devices such as lights, computer, television.

So if you take only 30 amps of current (15% of a 200 amp house electrical service rating) at 220v you get 6600 watts (6.6 kW) of power consumption. Allowing for health of the battery avoiding full discharge to zero one could estimate 60 kWh reasonably available from a nearly full charged 75 kWh battery. Divide that 60 kWh by the 6.6 kW and you would get 9 hours of use - that's it.

Think 6.6 kW is not realistic? Generac's smallest Home Backup Generator solution starts at a 7.5 kW rating, and their capacity ranges go upwards to around 22 kW from there. That should tell you something...

Even if you cut that consumption in half (maybe only using your furnace, TV, fridge, and water heater), that still gets you only 18 hours of use, and this is if the car happens to be fully charged whenever one decides to power a house with V2G.

Of course 9 to 18 hours of backup power is still quite useful, but powering a house for 'three days' on a Model 3 is an extreme stretch. While it may be possible, I would say it could happen only in rare ideal situations (car with full SOC at the time of power outage, Fall or Spring time of year having almost no HVAC usage, no laundry loads to do, no usage of electrical stove, and having a smart or gas water heater, and being very conservative with remaining electricity use still while on vehicle battery). Of course 'tiny' or small houses could get by somewhat longer, but those aren't average 'use cases'.

And remember with your expectations of V2G, you must always take cold showers and never blow-dry your hair (because a blow-dryer can use 1.5 kW all by itself).

Realistic actuation is key when evaluating practicality of a V2G implementation to power a house. Once you consider the larger homes accommodating a family, the electricity consumption is substantially more.
My home (Illinois) is currently heated with natural gas.

It's *electrical* demands seem fairly low, even on a cold winter's night. However, my house's total *energy* demands are pretty high in that same situation.

An all-electric house would be fairly demanding during Real Winter, due to the total energy requirement being in one place.

I'm looking into changing my house over to geothermal, but that costs almost as much as a CT1 and we are outgrowing this house.
 
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Tinker71

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Having two pure battery electric vehicles for three years, I don't see the advantage of the extra complexity. Current BEVs do all that without needing fuel tanks, engines, exhaust pipes, fueling, etc. A pure BEV is better than a hybrid. Charging points are multiplying like rabbits and 350 miles is a LONG way.

Have you ever heard of the KISS principle?
I agree 100%. However we are not quite there with battery capacity and cost. Many people are going to drop their reservations for CT1&2 based on ~50% range reduction while towing. I would rather they run on batteries 85 percent of the time vs ICE 100% of the time. A small propane genset might be a bridge for greater adaptation over the next 3-4 years. Again this is not a typical plug in hybrid with ICE drive motor and electric assist.
 

HaulingAss

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I agree 100%. However we are not quite there with battery capacity and cost. Many people are going to drop their reservations for CT1&2 based on ~50% range reduction while towing. I would rather they run on batteries 85 percent of the time vs ICE 100% of the time. A small propane genset might be a bridge for greater adaptation over the next 3-4 years. Again this is not a typical plug in hybrid with ICE drive motor and electric assist.
Most people don't tow interstate. For local towing BEV is the way to go. Interstate towing is a very small percentage of actual vehicle purchasers, even when only counting pickups. But, yeah, if you need to tow between states then ICE is going to be the more convenient solution (and more costly). If it were just occasional seasonal towing I wouldn't bother with the complexity of hybrid, I would just use a simple ICE truck. Or a Tri-motor Cybertruck and deal with a more leisurely travel mode.

The lifetime ownership cost economics of hybrids generally don't pencil out. It's the KISS principle. BEV or ICE. None of this "split the difference" hybrid BS for me!
 

Firetruck41

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The Lightning was seen in the background at Biden's speech today, as I suspected the body appears to be the same with some styling differences to the front end.
 

kenshortt

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While V2G seems great, IMO it's a trivial direction of power transfer with additional underlying detractors. If during a power outage you had V2G and powered your home with it, you're then depleting your vehicle battery stranding yourself at or near home, and you may not not know how long the power outage will last. So you're trading one problem for another.

With a Tesla powerwall and/or solar, you have home energy reserves without sacrificing your vehicle range to go out and assist others or replenish other vital supplies. IMO it is better to have a 'real' energy reserve, not just a means to cannibalize energy stored in the vehicle. Also, what happens if a power outage happens right before you were just 'going to charge' the car (say just after you arrive home, or after a few days commute)? In this case V2G would not even help you if the vehicle didn't already have decent SOC.

Also powering the home via V2G would also require knowledge and discipline to regulate use to avoid excess current draw and rapid battery drain, possibly even stressing the vehicle battery. Water heaters, and other high current devices might need to be manually shut off during these times, and that could be a tedious process for family members. What's going to stop a teenager from using the stove, microwave, or electric dryer during this reserve power draw from the vehicle? One would have to ideally set up a special transfer switch to isolate circuits for use during reserve V2G (V2H) power. After all, if using V2G during a power outage, wouldn't you want your reserves to last as long as possible, while avoiding total depletion of the vehicle battery charge? Complete discharge is not healthy at all for current Tesla battery packs, and one even gets a warning that their battery might be damaged at times when the SOC is getting very low.

For those who want V2G as a utility rate saving option (charge vehicle during off-peak rates, and then power the house some from the vehicle during peak utility rates) - I'll note that for this type of V2G usage you would be incurring numerous more charge and discharge cycles on your BEV and likely shortening the life of the battery.

With all these considerations, I think Tesla has already 'done the math' and which IMO is likely why Elon isn't so 'enthused' about V2G. Concepts often sound great in 'theory', but true actuation of the numbers involved along with testing, is necessary to determine how practical something is in real world usage. Many people don't have a good 'grasp' of what different power or current is drawn by their various electrical devices in their home. Fortunately, actuating technology metrics along with testing, is something that Tesla has proven to be very good at, resulting in a much better vehicle and sustainability products for us.

Not saying that V2G can't work because it definitely will work; I just don't think it should be a first tier power redundancy option in a practical sense. Now, if one could constrain their use of it for only *rare emergencies* (powerwall already depleted, or other situation), then V2G might 'save the day' when really needed. But using it 'all the time' would likely shorten BEV battery life and/or affect the BEV range (not good).
Power to the house is just an option that will have importance to some who will be glad they had it. Out in the masses I a confident the Truck to House would be used and successfully. It is a good idea. I own a Model Y. Remember all of the negative predictions by the Tesla/Musk haters in the media. It is a long list. I compliment the effort of Ford. Ford will figure it out.
 

Tinker71

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Most people don't tow interstate. For local towing BEV is the way to go. Interstate towing is a very small percentage of actual vehicle purchasers, even when only counting pickups. But, yeah, if you need to tow between states then ICE is going to be the more convenient solution (and more costly). If it were just occasional seasonal towing I wouldn't bother with the complexity of hybrid, I would just use a simple ICE truck. Or a Tri-motor Cybertruck and deal with a more leisurely travel mode.

The lifetime ownership cost economics of hybrids generally don't pencil out. It's the KISS principle. BEV or ICE. None of this "split the difference" hybrid BS for me!
Call me stubborn, but the super plug in hybrid concept is barely a hybrid. The drive remains all electric so you have all the torque and low maintenance of BEV, the propane motor takes up less than a cubic foot, the generator another 1.5 or so. You would have a small tank on the vehicle with the ability to hook up to a larger
removable tank in the bed. If the propane runs dry or there is a mechanical issue it would have very little impact on the vehicle. You would remove and replace the motor rather than worrying about servicing in place.

This concept is really an integrated generator tied to the charge computer/controller and heat pump system. It would have one speed. Full charging. No transmission. It would be very efficient in the winter.
A 10 hp genset would probably net you 6500 watts which is basically a nice level 2 charger except it would run while you drive. On a long trip while towing it would run constantly and should enable you to have the normal range you would have without your trailer.

Until I can drive 5 straight hours while towing (Breakfast to lunch at 70 mph) I will be dissatisfied. Not even a CT3 will do that. I don't ever want to invest in another ICE. I don't want to own 2 truck/suv type vehicles either.

This is a bridge until better batteries at a reasonable cost are available.
 

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