Winch - What is the priority?

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What is the priority when thinking about a winch for the Cybertruck?

I’m not posting here to illicit a debate over which brand is better or definitive arguments over which drive mechanism electric, PTO, hydraulic or compressed air is superior. (Yes, highly likely an electric direct drive motor would be used but chat through the thought experiment)
  1. What are the advantages of each?
  2. Where is the most efficiency vs utility going to land?
  3. What system will have the best power to weight?

The most common installation is a bolt on 12v unit with the specifications to match the expected load. Some of them can achieve a slight power/speed boost with a 24v system. With Cybertruck we’re going to have access to significantly higher voltages in 3 phases.

A PTO may be able to take advantage of the massive torque and power in the drive motors.

Hydraulics high power to weight could reduce size of the motor required.

An air compressor is already on board what advantages could that bring.

Then there’s utility parameters.

Front mount​
Central mount​
Rear mount​
Movable.
I have seen a centrally mounted winch with the line;
running to the rear right,​
across rollers to the rear left,​
then along track through the vehicle​
to a front bumper mounted fairlead.​

1:1 pull at the front 2:1 pull at the rear. Because it was driven by a PTO it was able to be geared so the speed matched the driven wheels in first gear going forwards. Very impressive and practical.

The ultimate question I’m trying to ask is;

What can Tesla do to enable a well integrated winch system for Cybertruck?​
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Crissa

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PTO would have some logistical problems. There's no clutch and transmission or drive shaft; and there's stuff between the wheels and the bumper.

Most likely is a 240v unit. Power from the traction battery would be rather more dangerous and variable in the voltage. (Tho people have done it.)

-Crissa
 
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So first couple of observations on the different drive types.

After market winch options:
  1. Air powered from the integrated compressor is very unlikely to have enough performance to work as a winch. A decent winch motor will pull anywhere between 1-5kW which with losses works out to 2-10kW of compressor power, which I highly doubt the CT compressor will have. Air motors aren't particularly small and compact either, and will be very load in comparison.
  2. Hydraulic winches are pretty epic, but to make one work you'll still need a electric powered hydraulic pump. Essentially it will add a fluid line instead of a electrical cable for connecting the power to the winch, but is also prone to leaks, seals, mechanical losses etc as well. The only advantage would be if you had a variable stroke pump so that you could have variable toque and speed, meaning you can change speed depending on load.
  3. A PTO driven winch, is fairly unlikely to happen seeing that, as Crissa mentioned, there is no way to decouple the winch function from the drive motor in a meaningful way, unless the PTO output had a clutch, at which point it would still not be possible to vary it's speed independently from the drive motor without some sort of gearing. Routing drive shafts through the front, or even the rear is also costly and hard to package, let alone will have negative impacts on crash performance.
  4. Of all of them straight out electric makes the most sense, and will be the most cost effective and could be the most functional to boot.
    1. A 12V winch is probably one of the most common, and can be bought off the shelf and connected to either the front or rear. MY and co have lithium 12V batteries, but they typically have limited capacity, and are supplied with power from the main drive battery using a converter. The converter can sometimes only be around 30-70A, which means that a smaller 1kW winch would draw around 83A meaning more than the converter can supply continuously, meaning your 12V battery will be depleted after a certain time if you use it for longer periods.
    2. A planetary gear driven 240V winch driven from the onboard 240V inverter would work best. This will have the smallest motor and sized cables, because of the voltage, it will also have up to 7kW or so of available power. It would be fairly simple to use the OBD port to determine vehicle speed and throttle position and then use that information to control a VSD (variable speed drive) to control winch speed, to either match or exceed vehicle speed. Obviously would also allow a remote to control the winch, and technically, if Tesla would implement it maybe even use summon so you could spot your 4X4 yourself.
Ideally though Tesla would implement their own winch system with dedicated high voltage drive motor and controls. Technically, they could also implement a hitch system, where whilst it's in the front it would be completely integrated and only expose the winch rollers and hook, the whole assembly could be simply unplugged and removed and put into the rear tow hitch instead to use it from the back. Obviously the level of integration into the vehicle for different terrain would also be the best with Tesla being even able to upgrade features over the air. Being able to use your phone as a remote will also be great, along with the outside camera views. There might even be a drone for use as a spotter. :)
 
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PTO would have some logistical problems. There's no clutch and transmission or drive shaft; and there's stuff between the wheels and the bumper.

Most likely is a 240v unit. Power from the traction battery would be rather more dangerous and variable in the voltage.

-Crissa
The decoupling of a PTO from the wheels could be achieved with locking hubs and a clutch for the winch. Totally not ideal but if geared appropriately the disconnect may not even be necessary. But it’s still a pretty clunky solution. I’m thinking there could be some weight savings using the drive motors, but the complexity might be not worth it.

Would a whole new gearbox be required for an electric winch powered from 240v? Or just replace the 12v motor from an of the shelf system?
 

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What is the priority when thinking about a winch for the Cybertruck?

I’m not posting here to illicit a debate over which brand is better or definitive arguments over which drive mechanism electric, PTO, hydraulic or compressed air is superior. (Yes, highly likely an electric direct drive motor would be used but chat through the thought experiment)
  1. What are the advantages of each?
  2. Where is the most efficiency vs utility going to land?
  3. What system will have the best power to weight?

The most common installation is a bolt on 12v unit with the specifications to match the expected load. Some of them can achieve a slight power/speed boost with a 24v system. With Cybertruck we’re going to have access to significantly higher voltages in 3 phases.

A PTO may be able to take advantage of the massive torque and power in the drive motors.

Hydraulics high power to weight could reduce size of the motor required.

An air compressor is already on board what advantages could that bring.

Then there’s utility parameters.
Front mount​
Central mount​
Rear mount​
Movable.​
I have seen a centrally mounted winch with the line;
running to the rear right,​
across rollers to the rear left,​
then along track through the vehicle​
to a front bumper mounted fairlead.​

1:1 pull at the front 2:1 pull at the rear. Because it was driven by a PTO it was able to be geared so the speed matched the driven wheels in first gear going forwards. Very impressive and practical.

The ultimate question I’m trying to ask is;

What can Tesla do to enable a well integrated winch system for Cybertruck?​
It’s a winch already!

Sheesh…none of this matters when you need one. I’ve owned all but the air variety.
PTO is old school mechanical, dual control(one on the power one on the takeoff). It TO is belt drum to conveyor its handy. If TO is propshaft its functional but hazardous. If winch, it wins brute force contests over electric and hydraulic with safety thresholds few could navigate. Its most flexible implemented front and/or rear. 2/10 score

Multiple mount points hydraulic is nice separating power from takeoff. Winching is efficient up to the limits of the hydraulic bleed valves. At the point that a winch exceeds hydraulics, it nicely forces an alternate rigging. Delay in running hydraulic controls suffers from manual lever actuated valves. 9/10 score

Electric? Seriously? Electric winches are better than nothing, sometimes best fit for a situation but absolutely designed to impress. Biggest drawbacks are power draw, power bleed and heat limiting power. Best budget choice, best JIC(just-in-case), best curb appeal and absolutely finest control, response and granularity needing only one-man operation with remote control. 6/10 score

Overland outfitted I would lean toward electric Harbor Freight. Expect to replace every 4th year and respool yearly.

Commercial rigged I wouldn’t waste money on a electric that isn’t designed for HD Commercial duty cycles. Cost of travel, downtime and employee wages/safety pushbaway from consumer electric winching in industry. Hydraulic fits this application.

Dedicated service vehicle its harder to guess between PTO and hydraulic. I’d lean toward hydraulic for every application with the exception of where power limits need PTO.

Fixed duty rigged truck attached to purpose-driven applications PTO. Wood chipper, Cement pump, conveyor, harvestor and water pumping situations under 100% load factors continuous demand PTO. Control, granularity and budget considerations are out-ranked by the sheer on-demand power requirement. Winching ain’t one of them excepting logging.
 


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Anyone who discounts electric kind of makes me wonder if they forgot what truck this is?

-Crissa
I would assume he's talking about a high power electric driven PTO on the CT?

We had a talk about a universal PTO before on another thread, but there it was a portable movable motor that could be attached in various locations and on implements directly to drive them, meaning no driveshafts or gearboxes are necessary, as the power cable would get the power there directly. It's really like having a high power electric winch, just that you can take the motor off for other tasks.

Would be a sweet setup to have a electric PTO, say around 20-30kW would do, especially for farm use. The only default integration required for after market products would be a protected battery connection front and rear, along with a hitch each. The rest could be add add on components, but ideally the whole thing would be an Tesla option at some point in time.
 

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Something attached to the traction battery would be pretty expensive, tho. You'd need double contactors and while it would probably be superior to trying to tap into the drive motors, at least in variability... That's a pretty expensive modification.

I hope someone tackles it on the third party market. But a 240v motor would probably be far, far easier.

-Crissa
 

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Something attached to the traction battery would be pretty expensive, tho. You'd need double contactors and while it would probably be superior to trying to tap into the drive motors, at least in variability... That's a pretty expensive modification.

I hope someone tackles it on the third party market. But a 240v motor would probably be far, far easier.

-Crissa
Yep and to be honest even 10-15kW on the 240V side would be enough for most CT type PTO tasks and give you heaps of assecessory options on top of anything that already runs 240V off the shelf, even the winch.

With 240V you can just plug in a off the shelf variable speed drive for RPM control too, so lots of implements become possible. I'm assuming the 240V will be active whilst driving like in the Fords etc.

What I'd still like to see is a body builder connection port, so everything can be controlled via the same app interface and a direct DC PV input for a few kW.
 
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I’m not sure you read the OP.

It’s a winch already!
Are you forgetting that a PTO would also be electric?

Everything on this truck is going to be electric but the question was about the benefits of using different methods to drive the drum. Are there advantages a different energy transfer mechanism?

You seem to be discounting “electric” because of your experience with 12v off the shelf units. I’m trying to ascertain how to ensure the experience is significantly better.

Hydraulic seems to have some advantages as a purely mechanical system but will that be compete with the simplicity of a ~400v direct drive system?

Where is the power, practicality or efficiency benefit?
 


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Yep and to be honest even 10-15kW on the 240V side would be enough for most CT type PTO tasks and give you heaps of assecessory options on top of anything that already runs 240V off the shelf, even the winch.
I hadn’t thought of having a pseudo PTO.

I think there could be something valuable in this for the design team. Design a space for the aftermarket to provide solutions, high strength mounting point, power leads and a comms link to the GUI/MCU.
If someone thought a hydraulic system would better suit their use case, (backhoe, snowplough, liftgate, etc) install a pump and lines. If you just want a winch, install a cable drum.

I’d like to see Cybertruck with a pseudo PTO as an accessory.
 

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The ePTO™ concept is an idea I had whilst driving our Multifarmer around our farm a while back. I don't like the whole PTO arrangement and general awkwardness in trying to hook stuff up on the front/back of the tractor and trying to drive it with something. First up it's way too limiting because it only has a certain range of motion that can be done, plus a exposed driveshaft and gearboxes at every turn just seems like a waste of resources. Let alone taming 180HP and not blowing up your implement from a wrong setting. With a ePTO, you just connect the motor in any orientation you need it, fasten it with a mini quick hitch arrangement with a single quick release bolt, plug it in with a single 3 phase cable with comms, clamp the cable to manage it, it registers the implement with a RFiD and hey presto an ePTO. There are some OEMs that are making similar products for agriculture etc. with hydraulic pumps.

The main difference here is that by adding a ePTO to a CT your sort of converting it into a Unimog type vehicle, but a EV not ICE one. There is of course all the other stuff that are trailer based that you could power, or use it as a tow truck, or firetruck.

Somewhere on this forum is a post from me from a few years ago going on about my CT Firetruck idea. Actually would be super capable, and would even put the larger Isuzu truck units to shame here in Oz. We had a fire start on our block from a lightning strike this year, crossed the road and headed for town, took out 3-4 houses, wiped out the vegetation on about 20, the boys and I saved a couple houses with our gear (Multifarmer Handler and 4x4 with 1kl) while the firies were all trying to keep it going into town on the other side of it. Our JD grader decided to have a flat that day, so that didn't see any action. Conditions were crazy, 44C day with a raging northerly at 60-70kmh, 24% humidity, firies normally pack up at a 100 fire conditions rating and go into survival mode, we had a 170 rating that day and were still fighting the fires. 😟

They got two of the Isuzu's bogged because we were fighting along the coast close to the beach, I didn't have an issue anywhere with the Multifarmer etc riding 600 wide ag tyres though. I've made up a 3 IBC fork for the back of it now with firepump, so now I can carry more water (3.6kl) and reload faster than a fire truck by simply swapping pods and driving off again. Have a steerable nozzle mounted on the end of the Multifarmers 9m telehandler boom and wheel deluge planned next. So I'll be better prepared for next time. Here in our area all the firies are screaming for Tatras now, I think we might be getting one next year....but for the price and capability, let alone maneuverability and for driving in gutless sand, a CT firetruck is the only way to go IMHO. We'd just need a supercharger nearby too, the closest one is 400km away. 😬
 

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Anyone who discounts electric kind of makes me wonder if they forgot what truck this is?

-Crissa
Nah, not underestimating its nameplate “truck”. People will use it as one. Not strictly as toy hauler, but put into service. Construction, Ag, Forestry, Mechanic, etc…

Its portmanteau other half is where it begins to get interesting.
 

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I’m not sure you read the OP.



Are you forgetting that a PTO would also be electric?

Everything on this truck is going to be electric but the question was about the benefits of using different methods to drive the drum. Are there advantages a different energy transfer mechanism?

You seem to be discounting “electric” because of your experience with 12v off the shelf units. I’m trying to ascertain how to ensure the experience is significantly better.

Hydraulic seems to have some advantages as a purely mechanical system but will that be compete with the simplicity of a ~400v direct drive system?

Where is the power, practicality or efficiency benefit?
“Cyber“ basically means *anything* electric software controlled in my rube goldberg conventioning.

Electric winches are a non-starter beyond recreation -with me.
Cyber from Tesla should be plug’nplay expected at the inverter level. IDK if Tesla wants the liability straight off the pack. Shit happens, gets loose and pretty soon its powering a lazer gun built off YouTube. What could go wrong?

Electric over hydraulic is doable, easy and the sense/switching are the only engineering tricks left as a fun EE exercise.

Electric over mechanical gets very interesting, harder and sense/switching control is lost completely at the point of TO. Many form factors popup for driving geared mechanicals to PTO. Fun will be had by the ME’s.

Direct-drive electric PTO not a fan at any voltage. I’ve owned military surplus compressors that were huge that never skipped a bit over 25yr. service. Perfect application IMO.
BUT PTO? Tesla has no control what use its electric motor-driven power will be applied. Direct drive means *any* freeze/stop/freespool impacts the motor. If its a winch cable snapping, driveline snap or geared jam beyond the TO point that impact hits he motor.
SO Tesla’s electric motor being the strongest link in the chain will cascade a set of failures, catastrophes or at least break things.
SO its a no-go until the ComSci/ME/EE guys workout a scheme for direct drive.
 

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Everything on this truck is going to be electric but the question was about the benefits of using different methods to drive the drum. Are there advantages a different energy transfer mechanism?
CyberPTO answer is not everything s/b direct-drive electric winching.
<6000# — The best method to drive the drum of a winch actually is direct-drive electric motor. This range captures toys, tiedown and snagging “stuff”(trees, wagons, skids and ?)

<12,000# — The preferred embodiment is electric over hydraulic with hydraulic controls at the winch drum-end. This captures offroad, snatching and pulling “stuff” that is movable.

+12,000# — The best would be electric over mechanical-geared PTO for a winch drum. This would be a CyberPTO implementing a software layer between the TO(takeoff) and electric motor. The Cyber layer could provide sensing, switching, granular power-curve maps, TO profiles(winch, pump, genset, etc…) and safeguards for health and human safety. This range tackles HD immovable stuck “stuff”, snatch block and static power applications where gearing reduces electric heat-robbing power-loss. A variable clutch gear could be mapped in sw, operating at steady-load on the electric motor.
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