Profit protection against resellers/scalpers.

[Deleted member 3316]

I just don't see the issue...

Clearly… I’ll try harder to articulate it for you.

Ticket scalping is different.

Its exactly the same mechanism as ticket scalping.

Tesla could deliver only 1 vehicle per buyer per year and who cares if the first guys immediately turn around and sell Thiers for twice as much. People didn't sign up early and don't want to wait.

Tesla don’t simply let the profit from queue jumpers willingness to pay more go to a profiteering leach. They are going to put the prices up for everyone, especially those that had the foresight to join the queue early.

Using the mitigation mechanisms outlined in OP, Tesla gets the potential flip profit and early reservation holders get their vehicle at a fair and affordable price

Next time sign up early.... Or pay more.

Early reservation holders will pay more because of queue jumpers.

A bit different if someone orders 10 vehicles and sells them but it easy for Tesla to prevent that.

What is the difference to Tesla of 5 people flipping two vehicles or 10 people buying one and selling another to support the cost of the first. Or one person trying to flip 10 vehicles?

Nothing, it’s exactly the same result.

What benefit does a scalper provide their customer? Early access at the expense of everyone else with opaque pricing.

Much of Teslas success is resultant of vertical integration and cutting out middlemen, like franchise stealerships.

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[SparkChaser]

Clearly… I’ll try harder to articulate it for you.



Its exactly the same mechanism as ticket scalping.



Tesla don’t simply let the profit from queue jumpers willingness to pay more go to a profiteering leach. They are going to put the prices up for everyone, especially those that had the foresight to join the queue early.

Using the mitigation mechanisms outlined in OP, Tesla gets the potential flip profit and early reservation holders get their vehicle at a fair and affordable price



Early reservation holders will pay more because of queue jumpers.



What is the difference to Tesla of 5 people flipping two vehicles or 10 people buying one and selling another to support the cost of the first. Or one person trying to flip 10 vehicles?

Nothing, it’s exactly the same result.

What benefit does a scalper provide their customer? Early access at the expense of everyone else with opaque pricing.

Much of Teslas success is resultant of vertical integration and cutting out middlemen, like franchise stealerships.

This all breaks down the societal contract of lines. If you get there first you get the item or service first. If I was number 1 on the list. After completing the sale, paying full price, is the vehicle mine or does Tesla still have rights of control?

Is it fair is someone put in 100 orders and is going to flip them? I say yes.
Don't get me wrong but where does this go?
If Tesla is going to blackball someone at this point to punish them, I am sure they will have a lawsuit on their hands.
I have not completed a sale with Tesla yet so I can only guess that the contract says but I find it highly unlikely that Tesal gets to say what you can do with the vehicle after you pay for it.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

After completing the sale, paying full price, is the vehicle mine or does Tesla still have rights of control?

It would depend on the contract of sale.

According to my proposal if you want the opportunity to attempt a flip for profit you can engage in a sales contract through the market rate auction and attempt to sell it at your leisure

If you would rather the opportunity to pay slightly less and enable others to also pay slightly less by having minor inconsequential restriction to the sale of that vehicle buy under those conditions.

Why should Tesla enable parasites to profit off their ingenuity?

 

[Dids]

Clearly… I’ll try harder to articulate it for you.



Its exactly the same mechanism as ticket scalping.



Tesla don’t simply let the profit from queue jumpers willingness to pay more go to a profiteering leach. They are going to put the prices up for everyone, especially those that had the foresight to join the queue early.

Using the mitigation mechanisms outlined in OP, Tesla gets the potential flip profit and early reservation holders get their vehicle at a fair and affordable price



Early reservation holders will pay more because of queue jumpers.



What is the difference to Tesla of 5 people flipping two vehicles or 10 people buying one and selling another to support the cost of the first. Or one person trying to flip 10 vehicles?

Nothing, it’s exactly the same result.

What benefit does a scalper provide their customer? Early access at the expense of everyone else with opaque pricing.

Much of Teslas success is resultant of vertical integration and cutting out middlemen, like franchise stealerships.

Why do you think Tesla is going to raise the price for everyone? I really don't understand what you are trying to say.
If Tesla raises the prices then flippers are able to get even more since they paid more. Clearly the first trucks will be very valuable for a period until more are available. This is normal for any rare/ desirable item. Why does this hurt you? Why does this hurt Tesla?
They get the profit margin that they need to make.
You get to buy a truck and sell it for more or keep it and enjoy an expensive vehicle.
Sure some guys ordered 10 or possibly 100 trucks but you can't resell 100 vehicles in most states without a dealers license. Tesla knows this and will discuss those fleet orders when the time comes and they aren't gonna send anyone more than 1 for the first year or so.
I really don't get the angst.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

Define parasite for me.
Contrast and compare with epiphyte.
This analogy might help you understand my objection.

 

[HaulingAss]

I had to vote "Yes, as described below" because the poll didn't offer sufficient options.

I think Tesla's current policy of requiring purchasers to verify they are not buying for the purpose of re-selling. This doesn't prevent a purchaser from deciding they bought the wrong vehicle and re-selling it, and it doesn't prevent someone from lying and immediately selling, but it does prevent serial scalpers who buy multiple Tesla and immediately sell them.

Tesla doesn't take legal action against people who try to do that, but it does give them a legal basis for refusing to sell them additional vehicles without it opening Tesla up to successful discrimination lawsuits when they refuse to sell to someone who then turns around and sues them and claims they are refusing to sell them additional vehicles because they are black or Jewish or whatever.

The free market should rule, but I do hope Tesla nips the serial scalpers in the bud so those waiting in line don't have to wait too much longer than necessary.

 

[HaulingAss]

Yes but with 1.6million reservations people with two reservations won’t care if they’re blackballed for the one they sell.

I think the only examples of Tesla black-balling scalpers involves multiple vehicles, certainly not one sale. I don't even know of any examples with only two or three sales.

 

[HaulingAss]

Tesla will make 500,000 minimum per year and may not worry about the relatively small percentage of one-off short-term reseller issues.

It will likely take until the third year of manufacturing to get to 500,000 in one year (second year of full production, so not counting 2023).

 

[cvalue13]

My bet? They found out how much more annoying it is to park a full size truck versus a Sonata. ha

i was shocked to see a number of people get their trucks home only to realize they didn’t “fit” in their garage. curious realizing people were both buying their first truck and also not appreciating/diligencing the size

that said, the broader Lightning price flattening is a little more straightforward

MSRP prices went way up, simultaneous with Federal BEV incentives going tits up, interest rates jumping up, all amid broader economic cooling … suddenly huge swaths of once MSRP buyers are backing out or never ordering, freeing up supply at MSRP

I love my lightning Lariat ER at a net $69,000 with 3.5% financing

But to buy the same one today, just 6 months later, would be $87,000 at ~5.15% while the news is constantly reporting layoffs?

frees up supply in a hurry

 

[HaulingAss]

so if they are making 30% over the cost of the product is that greedy?

That could only be considered greedy if Tesla prices it way too high at first, such that they have to cut the price by $20K within the first 12 months of sales to continue selling them in volume. I'm confident that is a very unlikely scenario.

Tesla will try to price it so they don't need to reduce the price until they have sold the first million or more (it depends upon the rate of reservations that do not convert to sales). No one can predict the state of the economy, which does have a big effect on the market value of any vehicle, so none of this is written in stone.

What you can count on is that Tesla will, if necessary, adjust the price up or down if they see a problem developing. They don't want to do this unless absolutely necessary, until they have basically burned through all the reservations. This means they will err on the low side at first and probably hold it through the reservation backlog. Then, if the economy is normal, they will likely have to raise prices a little after taking care of reservationists.

As production volumes ramp to really high levels in two-three years, and Tesla is realizing volume efficiencies, they will likely gradually lower prices between 2027-2030 but that of course is subject to modification based upon unforeseeable things.

 

[John K]

What I very much hope is that Tesla only delivers 1 car per person for at least the first 6 months.

Until they fulfill the first 200k reservation numbers.

 

[cvalue13]

Regarding the OP’s misunderstanding: money made by a scalper is not money lost by Tesla.

The scalpers of a CT are making money not due to an inherent scarcity (like the limited number if seats in a ticketed event), but instead due to Tesla’s correct unwillingness to sufficiently satisfy a demand that is driven by hype through scarcity. That is a tail that can’t be chased.

if Tesla theoretically makes “enough” to satisfy demand-by-hype, the hype itself goes away (scarcity is the hype), and Tesla loses money through stale stock.

these scalpers make money not off the CT, but instead off the feelings people get by having something before other people. the scalper’s price is not a market rate for the CT, it is the market price of the CT plus a second additional amount for scarcity-related emotions.

Tesla neither manufactures nor sells scarcity-related-emotions.

Though, a healthy dose of scalping and its attendant hype is more valuable to Tesla than any 10 marketing campaigns.

So, complain that scalping is unfair to customers because other customers. Complain even that Tesla should do things to protect customer’s feelings from other customers. But to suggest that scalpers are somehow taking money from Tesla is silly.

 

[HaulingAss]

This.

I really really believe a lot of Model 3 boyz are gonna be shocked about truck OWNERSHIP.

I sincerely doubt that truck ownership is going to surprise many thinking adults. It doesn't take a big imagination to understand what it's like to park, buy tires or wash (or whatever) a full-sized truck. Most people in the US have probably driven a truck before they buy one. Maybe it was their dad's truck, a brother or sister's truck, or a friend when they needed to move.

I've owned trucks on/off my entire life and driven them for employers and others and most people I know, even those who have chosen to not own a truck, understand the differences. It ain't rocket science. A bigger vehicle has bigger expenses but an EV minimizes that difference down to a bit more electricity (than a smaller EV) and tire expense. Brakes are not much of an issue with regen braking doing most of the work. That big ass wiper will probably cost more too!

What I know for sure is I'm dying to sell our F-150 and replace it with at least one Cybertruck.

 

[HaulingAss]

I have not completed a sale with Tesla yet so I can only guess that the contract says but I find it highly unlikely that Tesal gets to say what you can do with the vehicle after you pay for it.

The purchase/sale agreement, if it's like other Tesla cars, will simply say that Tesla is a seller of vehicles to end users and that you agree you are buying it for your own use. It doesn't prevent you from immediately selling it, but Tesla uses that clause to prevent people from buying multiple cars and re-selling them as if they were a car dealer.

 

[HaulingAss]

I love my lightning Lariat ER at a net $69,000 with 3.5% financing

But to buy the same one today, just 6 months later, would be $87,000 at ~5.15% while the news is constantly reporting layoffs?

The cost you paid for your Lariat ER was far below Ford's cost to produce. They took a real bath at that price. $87K is probably close to what it costs Ford to make each one. But there is no way they can sell that truck in high volumes at $87K in the same way that Tesla could sell a quad motor with 350 miles of range all day long. Yes, $87K would be a very expensive truck but people who can afford to make the stretch, will stretch hard for a truck that is far superior to a F-150 Lightning.

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