First Jerry rig everything, now mark rober 🧐

[nevetsyad]

I never heard of Mark Roper before this, but he may be getting some instant karma.

I just discovered Meet Kevin because of these two Mark Rober videos. What kind of lawyer are you? Think Tesla can/will go after them? Seems like market manipulation with a LiDAR company about to go out of business/get delisted from the NASDAQ surging 26% after this video with highly questionable content comes out, as TSLA tanks billions in the same day.

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[dalton108]

I just discovered Meet Kevin because of these two Mark Rober videos. What kind of lawyer are you? Think Tesla can/will go after them? Seems like market manipulation with a LiDAR company about to go out of business/get delisted from the NASDAQ surging 26% after this video with highly questionable content comes out, as TSLA tanks billions in the same day.

I am a civil litigation defense attorney. I represent Employers and insurance companies in injury related matters.

Answer: Sue EVERYBODY, let God sort it out!

I agree with his assessment. I suspect that Tesla will sue, and I suspect that they will win big and easily. But, I don’t think that the Luminar [sp?] will able to escape tort liability - they may have something in an agreement that requires this dummy to indemnify them, but that would be a contractual issue to be sorted out after the dust settles.

 

[freyguy]

There was a combination of AEB/AP across all tests, but from the product standpoint AEB is the lowest common denominator and the vehicle should have engaged the brakes regardless of AP use. He did also use AP visualization to demonstrate how cameras couldn't see into the water. Not sure if I've answered your question, but again I'm highlighting that the context isn't autonomy, but rather "ranging" using vision only.

The whole bias of the video is to fool a self driving car. If you’re naming your title “can you fool a self driving car” then you need to utilize FSD. Autopilot is not self driving. It’s a glorified lane keep assist with traffic aware cruise control and forward collision prevention.

What’s funny the luminar website had in a banner that stated tested by a nasa and apple engineer with clips from the video. But now all that has been removed.

seems fishy still

 

[nevetsyad]

I am a civil litigation defense attorney. I represent Employers and insurance companies in injury related matters.

Answer: Sue EVERYBODY, let God sort it out!

I agree with his assessment. I suspect that Tesla will sue, and I suspect that they will win big and easily. But, I don’t think that the Luminar [sp?] will able to escape tort liability - they may have something in an agreement that requires this dummy to indemnify them, but that would be a contractual issue to be sorted out after the dust settles.

Sounds like a long, drawn-out process. During that process, discovery sounds like it could be particularly interesting. There's usually agreements between creators and sponsors, you must show x and y happening with z product. Maybe it was more under the table, with Mark being friends with the LiDAR CEO and all.

Either way, resolved outside of court? Retraction, apology video/posts on all social media platforms. I'm here for it either way!

Actually, just saw in his video's description, he wasn't paid for it. Just helping his friend out and bashing Tesla for fun. "Thanks to Luminar for allowing us to test their LiDAR-equipped car. They provided the vehicle for testing purposes, but no compensation was given, and this is not a paid promotion"

Smart for Luminar. hah

 

[cybercricket]

The whole bias of the video is to fool a self driving car. If you’re naming your title “can you fool a self driving car” then you need to utilize FSD. Autopilot is not self driving. It’s a glorified lane keep assist with traffic aware cruise control and forward collision prevention.

Let me use your logic: FSD is not self driving because it requires a babysitter.

 

[nevetsyad]

Let me use your logic: FSD is not self driving because it requires a babysitter.

He didn't say it's not self driving because it requires a babysitter. You can get in a Model 3 and monitor it as it leaves your driveway, then drives all the way to the grocery store and parks itself. You just make sure it doesn't make any mistakes. That's self driving.

You get in an autopilot enabled car and tell it to take you to the grocery store, and it doesn't move. You have to drive it out of your driveway, take a turn. Drive to the intersection in your suburb, drive it onto the main road, then enable autopilot. Does it stop and go at lights automatically? I don't remember if the basic one does, it may just run through every red.

You take over at the last intersection, take the turn, enable it for another 500 feet. Turn it off and change into the turn lane. Take the turn into the grocery store, navigate the traffic and carts in the parking lot, then pull into a space.

See the difference there? It's massive.

 

[freyguy]

Let me use your logic: FSD is not self driving because it requires a babysitter.

Yes technically you can’t not pay attention. FSD is supervised, however as long as you’re looking ahead you require no streering wheel nag. Are we able to fully trust FSD where we can sleep or sit in back of car… no not at all. But if he is creating the video to prove /disprove a car that uses cameras in exchange for lidar/radar is less superior then you need to use the latest technology and not outdated autopilot. He has an older generation car equipped with uss.
I just would have preferred the car run FSD to meet his claims.

 

[freyguy]

He didn't say it's not self driving because it requires a babysitter. You can get in a Model 3 and monitor it as it leaves your driveway, then drives all the way to the grocery store and parks itself. You just make sure it doesn't make any mistakes. That's self driving.

You get in an autopilot enabled car and tell it to take you to the grocery store, and it doesn't move. You have to drive it out of your driveway, take a turn. Drive to the intersection in your suburb, drive it onto the main road, then enable autopilot. Does it stop and go at lights automatically? I don't remember if the basic one does, it may just run through every red.

You take over at the last intersection, take the turn, enable it for another 500 feet. Turn it off and change into the turn lane. Take the turn into the grocery store, navigate the traffic and carts in the parking lot, then pull into a space.

See the difference there? It's massive.

Autopilot is only beneficial on highways . Enhanced autopilot will do everything AP does as well as take interstate changes and your exit. At which point you the driver takes over.

AP/EAP will not stop at traffic lights or stop signs. The only advantage of EAP beyond what I mentioned is the smart summon

FSD like you said will take you to point an and to point b and then park.

FSD isn’t a complete replacement for a driver but of all the technologies available teslas is far more superior. Those out here comparing it to blue cruise are complete morons.

Tesla vision in the beginning seemed like it was a complete hoax of an idea and no one was buying into it. But the vision was there no pun intended and Elon delivered on his promise.

If this man can basically parallel park a rocket in mid air , that’s good enough for me.

 

[cybercricket]

The two of you may need some mustard. You already got two pretzels In Engineering there is a principle (popularized by Amazon): being self-critical. You can't make improvements in anything if you can't admit you're wrong.

 

[BannedByTMC]

If this man can basically parallel park a rocket in mid air , that’s good enough for me.

Obviously that's a lot easier than true FSD.

 

[TexasRaider]

Are you suggesting not slowing down in wet, icy, vision restricted conditions? As an FYI, lasers can't see through snow, and worse, droplets from real fog, snow or rain make the laser sensors crap out, VW, BYD, Mercedes, etc. default back to cameras and radar (if radar is still working) in those conditions.

Basically, I was pointing out that every system has its limitations in adverse conditions.
With FSD based on vision alone, I would believe that some of the time in bad weather conditions, every Tesla vehicle would NOT be able to drive.

 

[Crissa]

I agree. I think most people are being way too sensitive. I didn't notice the brand of car with Lidar. I didn't care about the product Luminar, etc. Any thinking person should be asking them same questions, is Vision enough to do X thing. I live in a very snowy place. I wish liar was included because it is better in some scenarios. I wonder all the time if my cameras are seeing much, or how they react with the glare of the sun, rain, snow, fog.

Lidar is limited by glare the same way that vision is. It uses light waves, too.

Lidar can't read signs from a moving car, they can't see ink, they can't see colors, they can't recognize objects.

The most sensitive kinds of lidar can see like, raised paint on a surface, but how useful is that, really?

Basically, I was pointing out that every system has its limitations in adverse conditions.
With FSD based on vision alone, I would believe that some of the time in bad weather conditions, every Tesla vehicle would NOT be able to drive.

There's no systems (currently) that can drive when vision can't operate, because they all need to read signs and avoid animals and people who wouldn't be able to see them coming even if they did!

-Crissa

 

[CeloTru]

I liked how they already cut out the wall before the car hit it lol...

 

[Deleted member 22486]

I liked how they already cut out the wall before the car hit it lol...

What kind of dufuses are on this forum? It WAS pre-cut because it was solid and any 1st year engineering student that understands even the most basic concepts around vision-only based ADAS system would have know there was a good chance it would hit the wall. Regarding the pre cut wall… Do you really think the cartoon like cut out was meant to fool people into thinking that styrofoam would fail that way when it was hit? It had to be pre-scored in order to reduce chance of damage to the vehicle if the most likely of scehappened. So why not make it a fun pattern? At 40 mpg the styrofoam could have caused major damage without a way to reduce the force of impact by providing mechanical “slide” to absorb the energy. You know… because of that thing called physics? Remember Columbia?

The science behind it…
Hitting a 4-foot-thick Styrofoam wall at 40 mph could cause damage to a vehicle, depending on the structure of the foam and the design of the car. Styrofoam absorbs impact by compressing, but it is not as effective as materials specifically engineered for energy absorption, like SAFER barriers or crumple zones[1][7].

If the impact area of the Styrofoam wall is pre-cut to allow the hit section to slide out, it would reduce the force of impact by increasing the collision duration and decreasing peak impact force. This principle is similar to how crumple zones or deformable barriers reduce damage in collisions[6][9].

Sources
[1] Why is bumper styrofoam still in tact after rear end accident at 30mph? https://community.cartalk.com/t/why...n-tact-after-rear-end-accident-at-30mph/81005
[2] [PDF] The Use of Impact Force as a Scale Parameter for https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19950022058/downloads/19950022058.pdf
[3] What is the impact speed of 2 identical cars going at 40mph ... - Reddit
[4] Light impacts still feel harsh, is the foam in the front & rear bumpers ...
[5] Impact force reduction by consecutive water entry of spheres https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...y-of-spheres/1F76DB78B53CCB244257451F22A244ED
[6] Car Crash Calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/car-crash-force
[7] The SAFER Barrier | University of Nebraska–Lincoln https://mwrsf.unl.edu/saferBarrier.php
[8] [PDF] Lab #4. Reducing peak force in an impact by crush- ing foam https://astro.pas.rochester.edu/~aquillen/phy141/labs/crush_lab.pdf
[9] Calculate the impact force in a collision - GIGACalculator.com https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/impact-force-calculator.php

 

[Deleted member 22486]

What kind of dufuses are on this forum? It WAS pre-cut because it was solid and any 1st year engineering student that understands even the most basic concepts around vision-only based ADAS system would have know there was a good chance it would hit the wall. Regarding the pre cut wall… Do you really think the cartoon like cut out was meant to fool people into thinking that styrofoam would fail that way when it was hit? It had to be pre-scored in order to reduce chance of damage to the vehicle if the most likely of scehappened. So why not make it a fun pattern? At 40 mpg the styrofoam could have caused major damage without a way to reduce the force of impact by providing mechanical “slide” to absorb the energy. You know… because of that thing called physics? Remember Columbia?

The science behind it…
Hitting a 4-foot-thick Styrofoam wall at 40 mph could cause damage to a vehicle, depending on the structure of the foam and the design of the car. Styrofoam absorbs impact by compressing, but it is not as effective as materials specifically engineered for energy absorption, like SAFER barriers or crumple zones[1][7].

If the impact area of the Styrofoam wall is pre-cut to allow the hit section to slide out, it would reduce the force of impact by increasing the collision duration and decreasing peak impact force. This principle is similar to how crumple zones or deformable barriers reduce damage in collisions[6][9].

Sources
[1] Why is bumper styrofoam still in tact after rear end accident at 30mph? https://community.cartalk.com/t/why...n-tact-after-rear-end-accident-at-30mph/81005
[2] [PDF] The Use of Impact Force as a Scale Parameter for https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19950022058/downloads/19950022058.pdf
[3] What is the impact speed of 2 identical cars going at 40mph ... - Reddit
[4] Light impacts still feel harsh, is the foam in the front & rear bumpers ...
[5] Impact force reduction by consecutive water entry of spheres https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...y-of-spheres/1F76DB78B53CCB244257451F22A244ED
[6] Car Crash Calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/car-crash-force
[7] The SAFER Barrier | University of Nebraska–Lincoln https://mwrsf.unl.edu/saferBarrier.php
[8] [PDF] Lab #4. Reducing peak force in an impact by crush- ing foam https://astro.pas.rochester.edu/~aquillen/phy141/labs/crush_lab.pdf
[9] Calculate the impact force in a collision - GIGACalculator.com https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/impact-force-calculator.php

For those who believe that pre-cutting the Styrofoam is a setup rather than a safety precaution, it’s important to explain the reasoning behind this design choice:

1. **Energy Absorption and Impact Reduction**: Pre-cutting Styrofoam allows the material to deform or slide out upon impact, which dissipates energy more effectively and reduces the force transferred to the vehicle. This is a standard engineering principle used in crash barriers and safety systems to minimize damage and injury[2][4][7].

2. **Safety Design, Not Deception**: The pre-cutting is done deliberately to enhance safety by controlling how the Styrofoam behaves during a collision. Without this design, the foam might resist more rigidly and unpredictably, increasing the risk of damage[3][6].

3. **Practical Precedent**: Similar methods are used in packaging fragile items, where foam is custom-cut to absorb shocks and vibrations, ensuring protection during transit. This demonstrates that pre-designed deformation is a practical safety measure, not manipulation[1][4].

This approach prioritizes safety by reducing harm, aligning with established practices in both engineering and packaging industries.

Sources
[1] The Advantages of Custom-Cut Foam for Shipping Your Products https://solutions.sterlinghouston.com/blog/custom-cut-foam-for-shipping
[2] What is Styrofoam? The Ultimate Guide to Styrofoam - Epsole https://epsole.com/what-is-styrofoam/
[3] Understanding XPS Foam: Uses and Advantages - Atlas Stucco https://atlasstucco.com/blog/xps-foam/
[4] 4 Reasons Why Styrofoam Protective Packaging Works https://solutions.sterlinghouston.com/blog/4-reasons-why-eps-foam-works-as-packaging-protection
[5] Five Benefits of Foam Plastic Insulation https://www.plasticsengineering.org/2024/08/five-benefits-of-foam-plastic-insulation-005971/
[6] Every Type of Packaging Foam Explained: Pros and Cons - Creopack https://creopack.com/en/blog/types-packaging-foam/
[7] Top 5 Things You Need to Know About Polystyrene https://www.engineeredfoamproducts.com/news/top-5-things-you-need-to-know-about-polystyrene/
[8] Expanded Polystyrene Ordinance - LA Sanitation - City of Los Angeles https://sanitation.lacity.gov/san/f...s-lsh-wwd-s/s-lsh-wwd-s-sr/s-lsh-wwd-s-sr-eps

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