Autopilot

[MIGUEL GONZALEZ DEL REY]

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[PungoteagueDave]

@MIGUEL GONZALEZ DEL REY

ok cool. here is the section relevant to the topic of autopilot on the Cybertruck:



Tesla hasn't reached feature parity with most other models yet because they don't have enough training data to satisfy a minimum safety score (and likely hundreds of other boxes to check with regulatory agencies). Also, there is a chance autopilot with the autosteer feature may technically never arrive, since the vast majority of resources in that area are being placed in FSD. The teams want to eventually remove the disparity branch of software between AP and FSD anyway, so long term autopilot will probably be phased out in favor of those features just being packaged with FSD.

Tesla has been quiet on this for a variety of valid reasons.

They aren’t quiet on this - Tesla has specifically notified owners in writing that AP will not happen, isn’t in development any more, and that FSD is being added to all CTs for a year beyond the initial 90-day trial. And yes, there are legal ramifications for Tesla.

Your comment on training data is simply speculation based on Tesla history - and comments by other in related threads speculating why FSD is so far behind on the CT compared to other models. It’s is just as valid to speculate that the information is mostly transferable between models, at least those with bumper cameras, and that the real issue is low volumes making the CT a stepchild in software development priority. That’s my bet. But we are both guessing.

There is no regulatory agency oversight in the U.S. related to FSD and no approvals - this is definitively NOT the cause of any delays - that’s an Elon-speak blurry escape hatch. Don’t buy the BS. There are agencies that COULD exercise this authority, but none have so far, other than to request information and ask a few questions. There are two active safety investigations, and some congressional oversight queries, but there is no “approval” process. There are approval hurdles for the robotaxis at the state/local level, but that’s a whole other thing.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

I hasn't been taken out; it doesn't exist yet. Did you read my earlier post where I gave details of why?

You can't just copy > paste software and features from the Model Y to the CT.

So wrong. Your “yet” implies it will happen. Tesla promised AP in writing and then abandoned it - their legal mumbo jumbo escape hatch is not protection here because it is a feature delivered with EVERY other Tesla model and purchasers have a reliance right based on the written contract language - they could not take away a feature like a mapping for example, as your response implies their omnibus language would allow.

 

[REM]

They aren’t quiet on this - Tesla has specifically notified owners in writing that AP will not happen, isn’t in development any more, and that FSD is being added to all CTs for a year beyond the initial 90-day trial. And yes, there are legal ramifications for Tesla.

Your comment on training data is simply speculation based on Tesla history - and comments by other in related threads speculating why FSD is so far behind on the CT compared to other models. It’s is just as valid to speculate that the information is mostly transferable between models, at least those with bumper cameras, and that the real issue is low volumes making the CT a stepchild in software development priority. That’s my bet. But we are both guessing.

There is no regulatory agency oversight in the U.S. related to FSD and no approvals - this is definitively NOT the cause of any delays - that’s an Elon-speak blurry escape hatch. Don’t buy the BS. There are agencies that COULD exercise this authority, but none have so far, other than to request information and ask a few questions. There are two active safety investigations, and some congressional oversight queries, but there is no “approval” process. There are approval hurdles for the robotaxis at the state/local level, but that’s a whole other thing.

So wrong. Your “yet” implies it will happen. Tesla promised AP in writing and then abandoned it - their legal mumbo jumbo escape hatch is not protection here because it is a feature delivered with EVERY other Tesla model and purchasers have a reliance right based on the written contract language - they could not take away a feature like a mapping for example, as your response implies their omnibus language would allow.

Ok, what's "base autopilot"? Define it.

 

[REM]

They aren’t quiet on this - Tesla has specifically notified owners in writing that AP will not happen, isn’t in development any more, and that FSD is being added to all CTs for a year beyond the initial 90-day trial. And yes, there are legal ramifications for Tesla.

Your comment on training data is simply speculation based on Tesla history - and comments by other in related threads speculating why FSD is so far behind on the CT compared to other models. It’s is just as valid to speculate that the information is mostly transferable between models, at least those with bumper cameras, and that the real issue is low volumes making the CT a stepchild in software development priority. That’s my bet. But we are both guessing.

There is no regulatory agency oversight in the U.S. related to FSD and no approvals - this is definitively NOT the cause of any delays - that’s an Elon-speak blurry escape hatch. Don’t buy the BS. There are agencies that COULD exercise this authority, but none have so far, other than to request information and ask a few questions. There are two active safety investigations, and some congressional oversight queries, but there is no “approval” process. There are approval hurdles for the robotaxis at the state/local level, but that’s a whole other thing.

Nah, I understand fundamentally how the software stack works. They don't have a native model ready for the Cybertruck yet. Why do you think they just handed out 1 year free.

 

[Black306]

They aren’t quiet on this - Tesla has specifically notified owners in writing that AP will not happen, isn’t in development any more, and that FSD is being added to all CTs for a year beyond the initial 90-day trial.

“As we improve our Autopilot technology, our feature sets will change.”
-Tesla

Funny, I must have received a different memo. ?‍

 

[PungoteagueDave]

“As we improve our Autopilot technology, our feature sets will change.”
-Tesla

Funny, I must have received a different memo. ?‍

That attempt at legal inoculation is both tortuously ineffective and inapplicable when attempting to entirely eliminate a stated feature that is core to driving and specifically listed in the purchase contract as included in the vehicle’s base feature set. Please.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Nah, I understand fundamentally how the software stack works. They don't have a native model ready for the Cybertruck yet. Why do you think they just handed out 1 year free.

Did you read their email? Specifically says AP isn’t in development any more and isn’t coming.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Ok, what's "base autopilot"? Define it.

I don’t have to define it. Tesla did in its blogs and Elon’s words over the years, as well as the vehicle and feature descriptions on their website. I see what you are again doing here, fanboi. Not taking the bait. I’ve had AP since late 2015 when it was first downloaded to my P85D. At that time it was totally hands free, no nag. Adding nag was a change to the feature set. Completely removing it is not.

 

[Black306]

That attempt at legal inoculation is both tortuously ineffective and inapplicable when attempting to entirely eliminate a stated feature that is core to driving and specifically listed in the purchase contract as included in the vehicle’s base feature set. Please.

Sure buddy. Tesla never updates their software to add features. What am I thinking.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Sure buddy. Tesla never updates their software to add features. What am I thinking.

That’s not what we are discussing. We are discussing entirely REMOVING a feature that is listed in the purchase contract. Tesla has now disclosed IN WRITING that it has no intention to develop nor provide AP to the CT, a feature that it listed in every purchase contract. I personally have no issue with this, see FSD as the future, but their legal exposure for this is quite real.

 

[REM]

I don’t have to define it. Tesla did in its blogs and Elon’s words over the years, as well as the vehicle and feature descriptions on their website. I see what you are again doing here, fanboi. Not taking the bait. I’ve had AP since late 2015 when it was first downloaded to my P85D. At that time it was totally hands free, no nag. Adding nag was a change to the feature set. Completely removing it is not.

Adding the nag was mandated by federal agencies, and thus, not a "feature" change from Tesla.

Curious that you didn't already know this.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Adding the nag was mandated by federal agencies, and thus, not a "feature" change from Tesla.

Curious that you didn't already know this.

Incorrect again. Tesla has never received a federal mandate for any feature other than through recalls, and each of those was initiated by Tesla itself. There is no set of Federal regulations associated with AP or FSD. There have been a few Federal inquiries and requests for more information, to which Tesla has responded, but there has never been a feature change due to Federal action. Tesla added nag in early 2016 exclusively and directly as a result of idiots posting videos of Teslas without drivers in the front left seat. They were using AP, a feature that was advertised and contracted for with buyers by Tesla as included in the CT, but which is now abandoned.

We can speculate that the reason Tesla gave up on AP for CT is resource leveling and the low take rate for the truck no longer justifying the commitment, but it was a legally enforceable obligation. It is also a moral obligation. There were things that Tesla could have done to hedge this commitment, but did not do. For example, there was no need to include it at all in the feature set listed in sales and contractual language, instead focusing on the superior FSD feature set. This may have been an oversight, but it does put them in a box because of the few folks who cling to AP and prefer not to pay for FSD.

One way for Tesla to shunt the issue entirely is seen in their first step to evade this obligation - provide free FSD. They have now done this for every CT for an added year beyond the trial period. The next stop would be to define FSD as fully incorporating the AP feature set, which it essentially already does. The final step would be to rename FSD as FSD/AP or something similar and say “mission accomplished”. The problem with this is the future FSD revenue stream to Tesla. Perhaps the CT will remain a niche vehicle and that revenue loss won’t be material, so every truck sold going forward will simply include FSD.

It’s pretty clear that not including some sort of AP/cruise control as a base feature is a nonstarter for even the lowest price CT. There’s no $60k vehicle sold by any manufacturer without some sort of AP-like cruise control.

 

[ABILISK]

Looking at the order pages for all models today, as if we were to buy a new vehicle configured exactly to our specs, CT lists TACC and all the sexy cars list Autopilot.

That means someone who orders a “custom” CT today gets a different order agreement than we got - meaning Tesla knows something has physically changed since we got our trucks. Talk about what “autopilot” legally means all you want. Tesla knows what they did.

It’s truly surprising they won’t deliver AP on their “best product” as Elon calls it (just for the record, I totally agree, but this is a disappointing move).

If they pull this, what’s next? I’m starting to fear CT will never see unsupervised FSD, yet there’s talk of licensing FSD to other automakers. How will they pull off FSD on a Fiat and a Ford Transit at the same time when they can’t even give CT AP?

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Looking at the order pages for all models today, as if we were to buy a new vehicle configured exactly to our specs, CT lists TACC and all the sexy cars list Autopilot.

That means someone who orders a “custom” CT today gets a different order agreement than we got - meaning Tesla knows something has physically changed since we got our trucks. Talk about what “autopilot” legally means all you want. Tesla knows what they did.

It’s truly surprising they won’t deliver AP on their “best product” as Elon calls it (just for the record, I totally agree, but this is a disappointing move).

If they pull this, what’s next? I’m starting to fear CT will never see unsupervised FSD, yet there’s talk of licensing FSD to other automakers. How will they pull off FSD on a Fiat and a Ford Transit at the same time when they can’t even give CT AP?

As it’s been removed from the feature set on current sales and going forward, my sense is that all prior sales get FSD for the life of ownership but non transferable. That gets Tesla off the hook and owners won’t have much to complain about. However, Foundation series owners might have an $8,000 claim for having paid extra for a feature that others are getting for “free”.

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