Will The Cybertruck Be Upgraded From 400 Volt to 800 Volt Battery Architecture ?

Geo

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Considering many new EV's are now running 800 V or 900 Volt architecture, does anyone know when or whether Tesla will move from 400 v to an 800 v architecture ?

How easy or not the transition will be ?

E.G. Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Lucid, GM, Ford, etc etc etc.

How will the Tesla charging stations upgrade rollout unfold, what will happen to the 400 volt existing Tesla fleet ?

Is the production delay of the Semi also related to moving to the new 800 Volt architecture ?



https://www.greencarreports.com/new...-shift-to-800v-systems-for-luxury-evs-by-2025

Supplier Delphi Technologies announced last week that it will supply 800-volt inverters for an unnamed automaker's future luxury electric cars.

Delphi now claims that it will be supplying inverters for three out of the top four global premium automakers, indicating a broad shift toward 800V systems for high-end EVs.


The latest supply deal is expected to launch in 2024 across the customer automaker's EV range, a Delphi press release said. It will also mark the introduction of the sixth generation of Delphi's Viper inverter—a component Delphi said enables 800V charging and can greatly reduce charge times compared to today's 400V systems.

Delphi previously teased a $2.7 billion deal for a volume-production "high-performance vehicle" from "a premier global OEM" in 2022.


It isn't the only supplier betting on a switch to 800-volt electrical systems. Hitachi announced a "high output" 800V inverter in 2019.



Tesla Cybertruck Will The Cybertruck Be Upgraded From 400 Volt to 800 Volt Battery Architecture ? cadillac-lyriq-concept_100755404_l
Cadillac Lyriq concept


Lucid Motors has developed its own inverter and is instead planning on a system voltage of about 920 volts, and what CEO Peter Rawlinson described to Green Car Reports as a "symbiotic relationship between motor, inverter, software, transmission, and battery pack"

So far, Porsche has led the way with 800-volt systems with its Taycan sedan, and the Taycan has arguably helped push the shared Combined Charging Standard (CCS) forward.

Some EV makers, like Rivian and General Motors, have planned for a change to 800-volt along the way. Rivian's R1T pickup truck and R1S SUV could get an upgrade after the start of production, while GM's Ultium modular battery system includes an option for an 800V charging with a double-stack battery pack.

The next generation premium EV platform from Hyundai and Kia is likely to offer 800V versions as well. A Kia model based on that platform is expected to arrive by late 2021.
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ajdelange

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The immediately obvious advantage of doubling the voltage is halving the current which means quartering I^2R losses. This sounds good in marketing by the 3/4 loss reduction assumes you keep the same size copper and that would lead to a problem in, for example, a motor which requires, at half current, twice the number if turns to produce the same flux. Thus one does not get a big efficiency boost from doing this. Most small motors in the US are wound with two coils which can be connected in series for 240 V or parallel for 120 V. I've not seen separate efficiencies quoted for the two connections but they are probably a bit different.

There are, of course, potential savings in the amount of copper required in the conductors between batteries and inverters. One of the OEMs claims, IIRC, nearly 100 lbs. This, they say, reduces cost and increases efficiency. Both true.

Inverters: I don't have a feel for this. Off state losses are the product of the battery voltage and the leakage current. On state losses are the product of the on state current (which is halved) and the saturation voltage. There may be some benefit there.

The big downside of 900V is, of course, that insulation becomes more demanding and that semiconductors must be able to withstand higher voltages. These problems have, in large measure, been solved to the point that several OEMs are making 900V BEVs.

The area where the OEM makes out with higher voltage is in charging. When one gets up to 250 kW he is talking 625 A at 400 V. That takes a really fat charging cable in an air cooled configuration. Thus liquid cooling is required of the Tesla V3 SC cables. As the cables in the car are not liquid cooled they have to be pretty fat in order to not overheat and the car probably has to throttle back charging rate from time to time to keep them at reasonable temperature. One can, by contrast, get 350 kW at 920V (CharIIN HPC350 compliant charger) only 380.4A. Thus the 900V chargers can potentially charge faster than Telsa's vehicles at 400 V and fast charging has emerged as a big deal in marketing and Tesla is rather at a limit as long as it stays at 400V.

The question is as to when they will switch over. Of course I have no idea. What is doubtless holding them back is inertia. They have tremendous investment in the production of 400 V BEV and another huge one in a 400V charging network. But I think we can be sure that they are looking at ways to get to faster charging and that means ways to get to 900 V. One way to do that is to use Rivian's approach which is to build a 400V car whose battery pack can be rearranged to an 800 V configuration for charging. Rivian has applied for a patent on that so it may not be available to Tesla. It would then be a relatively simple matter to roll out new V4 superchargers or even perhaps to possibly retrofit the V3's with 900 V modules.
 
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Geo

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The immediately obvious advantage of doubling the voltage is halving the current which means quartering I^2R losses. . . . . .

The question is as to when they will switch over. Of course I have no idea. What is doubtless holding them back is inertia. They have tremendous investment in the production of 400 V BEV and another huge one in a 400V charging network. But I think we can be sure that they are looking at ways to get to faster charging and that means ways to get to 900 V.
Yes, I totally agree with you here.

So given that obvious immediate benefit of much faster charging times.

And given its inevitable that they will move to this hi voltage Architecture,
lets see what conclusions can be easily deduced from all the facts we know so far.
For instance given the Semi will be delivered in the next 12 months or so.

Given the Semi will have approx. 1000 kwh battery.

The fact It is a serious commercial consideration for the Semi to have the fastest possible charge times.

All means, that 800 Volt plus Architecture, Tesla will have in at least one vehicle within about 12 months.
The Semi.

Which could also explain the delay, its the far reaching implications of 800 V on the charging station infrastructure.

Accordingly Tesla charging stations must be in part be substantially converted to accommodate the 800 V Semi in coordination with the delivery date of The Semi.

The opportunity to move to 800 V plus architecture is compounded by the Plaid Model S that will have a 520 mile range and is scheduled for Delivery in less than 12 months.

Which could and should further the likelihood the Plaid (tri motor) Cybertruck will also be 800 V plus. In which case I see all versions of the Cybertruck be 800 v plus.

What this means for the Tesla’s being bought between now and then is a degree of obsolescence or just inferiority.

So here’s the Captain Obvious headline, the news that as far as I can tell, nobody has mentioned :

Tesla to move to 800 V plus architecture.

Cybertruck to have new 800 V plus fast charging electrical architecture.
 

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So here’s the Captain Obvious headline, the news that as far as I can tell, nobody has mentioned :

Tesla to move to 800 V plus architecture.

Cybertruck to have new 800 V plus fast charging electrical architecture.
Actually Cyberman done beat you to it.
 
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ajdelange

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There is another approach to fast charging and the Semis that have been spotted occasionally use it. They have multiple 400 V charging ports such that, I guess, they can be charged at any current super charger station and at multiples of 250 kW just by plugging in more than one Super Charger. Evidently when they do that a crew comes in and blocks off the set of dispensers they intend to use and the individual ones are plugged into some sort of octopus which joins the multiple "extension cords" in one giant plug with multiple sets of pins which plugs into the truck.

Presumably truck stops will have superchargers (remember that a SuperCharger is a box full of paralleled low power modules) with this super plug connected so the octopus won't be necessary.

Now there is no reason that this approach couldn't be taken with the CT. The 400 V pack cells could be split into two 400 V packs each connected to its own charging port (and internal AC charger) which would allow it to charge from two SC (or two EVSE) simultaneously. It would be a simple matter to build super SuperChargers with two heads simply by putting two of the current design in one box. This could be a first step to faster than 250 kW charging for Tesla.

The second step might be to connect the two halves of the pack in series for charging from 800V chargers and put them back in parallel a-la Rivien. New SC with 200 - 920 V modules (compliant with CharIN HPC-350 or CgarIN HPC-xxx; xxx > 350) would be phased in. They would be able to charge the current fleet or the new switchable chargers,

The third step would be the evolution of the motors, inverters etc in the vehicle itself to 800V components.

All this is speculative but I do see the possibility of an evolutionary path such as the one just sketched. This would allow Tesla to grow into 900 V while retaining, at least for a time, the value of their ivestment,
 


ajdelange

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I am guessing that at least initially these will be the same thing i.e. the Mega Charger will be two V3s in one can or, more particularly, the modules from 2 V3s in the same can. Whether there will be two dispenser heads or a single cable to a 4 pin (DC) head I don't know and I could be altogether full of it.
 

Nanodot

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The second step might be to connect the two halves of the pack in series for charging from 800V chargers and put them back in parallel a-la Rivien. New SC with 200 - 920 V modules (compliant with CharIN HPC-350 or CgarIN HPC-xxx; xxx > 350) would be phased in. They would be able to charge the current fleet or the new switchable chargers,
i like this as it might be the least disruptive to all the other S3XY series of cars. Although the series/parallel high amperage switch/wiring/relay AWG costs might be too expensive???
 

ajdelange

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Although the series/parallel high amperage switch/wiring/relay AWG costs might be too expensive???
Yes, the added complexity will add to the costs but to my way of thinking these are investments that may eventually lead to lower costs through reduced copper. One might at first think that kV solid state switches would be very expensive but they are not. The technology has come along nicely,
 

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This would allow Tesla to grow into 900 V while retaining, at least for a time, the value of their ivestment,

Why can't Tesla go to 1200v? Especially in the Tesla Semi architecture.

Power Electronics are capable of supporting 1200v

1200v SiC Mosfets from Cree Wolfspeed, Rohm, Microchip, Toshiba, Infineon and others.

1200v IGBTs Infineon


Komatsu is developing battery-electric excavators with Proterra. Komatsu Electric Excavator

"Proterra's batteries use NCM 811 lithium-ion cylindrical cells and can support vehicle voltages up to 1,200V DC and 6 Mwh in size."


New 1200V Integrated Circuit Changes The Way 3-Phase Motor Drive Inverters Are Designed

"New 1200-V high voltage integrated circuit technology and design advances enable a whole new class of 3-phase motor drive inverters that set new benchmarks for efficiency, compactness and ruggedness."
 

ajdelange

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It could I suppose but what would be the advantage? A bit more copper saved for sure. They wouldn't do it until 1500 V semi conductors were available at low cost though
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