OneLapper

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Tesla should stop wasting time with their quad. They should get the IP from the AltaMotors leftovers and start producing and selling the MXR and EXR bikes 1:1 as Alta did. I still can´t belief they locked up this company. Three of those bikes fit onto the CT. Imagine the package: A full 150kWh CT battery and three 6kWh MX-bikes. Endless, innocent and quiet offroadfun for several people for several days.

I own an Alta. Hands down, the best dirt bike I've owned. I love riding that bike, and it's one of the reasons I became interested in getting a Tesla.

It's a shame they went under. Taking on Harley Davidson as an investor, and sharing technology with HD, was their fatal mistake. Then HD put NDA's on anyone and everyone, sued the top executives. Their was nothing tangible (or IP) for KTM or the such to purchase that HD didn't already get for $.05 on the dollar.
 

PLC

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Their was nothing tangible (or IP) for KTM or the such to purchase that HD didn't already get for $.05 on the dollar.
Can you explain a little closer what that sentence means? My (business)english is unfortunately too bad.

To the rest of your post: thats what I am talking about. The Alta bikes are (or have been) top notch and would have forced KTM to deliver serious BE-dirtbikes instead of this E-Freeride-BS within few years. And such bikes would be the perfect companion for a CT or a Rivian considering the need to charge them in the field.
 

Crissa

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Of course Zero bikes replaces something for some people, but in a global scale they replace nothing.
I would call this point, 'unsupported'. They have the range now to cover nearly all commutes, leaving just those who commute over 10x the national median. (Less than one in twenty commute that far)

The FX is an XT500 with limited range.
aka, 'the same range'.

An Alta EXR outperforms...
No longer available, so why bring it up? The FX that you denigrated beats it in several specs, which is a teeny bit odd, don't you think?

Why is it you're so biased against Zero? Like Tesla, they've managed to remain in business. Selling something for less than it cost to make (aka Alta) is not going to do that.

-Crissa
 
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Crissa

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Can you explain a little closer what that sentence means? My (business)english is unfortunately too bad.
He's saying Harley bought Alta's tech in the merger and then pulled out when it was clear the company had no plan how to make money.

http://www.dirtbike-digital.com/dir...cle.action?articleId=1464640#articleId1464640
Derick Dorrensteyn said:
...In a lot of ways that people use motorcycles, electric is really great. But people don’t always buy motorcycles for what they actually do with them. They buy them for the image of what they might want to do with them, so there’s a gap that we face around range, specifically, They buy vehicles that can do those long rides, and they might not always do long rides. So that’s a matter of education...
There is no lawsuit and no non-compete. Alta didn't have a way to sell its bikes. Zero has priced at a higher price-point and has governmental and industrial customers.

You have to have a plan on how to sell your bikes and pay your mechanics.

-Crissa
 

PLC

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Thanks for the link.
There is no lawsuit and no non-compete. Alta didn't have a way to sell its bikes.
You have to have a plan on how to sell your bikes and pay your mechanics.
Where do you read all that? There would be a lawsuit if he spoke out open what happened between Alta and HD. The bikes where selling good and 50% better every quarter. Of course they did not break even yet. How could they? We are talking about the industrial massproduction of a hightechproduct. The investors have to be patient until the SOC kick in. That's in short the plan when developing a new product. And that's what investors do for usual. Unless the investor is an enemy agent. Selling something for less than it costs is part of EVERY new business in the beginning.
To Zero and the FX that I "denigrate": they beat nothing and they replace nothing in a global scale. They might be an option for people who commute in areas with warm and dry weather, but in general no option for people who want to race or want to travel with their bikes (in sum the vast majority in my experience). The XT500 is refueled in 2 mins, the FX needs 1.5 hours for another 80mi. If you crank out the 5.8kWh of an MXR or EXR offroad, you definitely need the time the battery refuels for refueling yourself. That's why Alta replaced something. And that's why they do not exist anymore. If somebody had figured out how to sell Elon an "opportunity" like that, Tesla would have been gone for years already.

No longer available, so why bring it up?
I bring Alta up because it fits to the topic: there ist no need for Tesla to develop an electric offroadtoy which fits on the back of the CT and sucks juice out of its big battery. These toys exist already, are ready for massproduction and just need a serious investor and maybe darker plastics. And please stop taking my negativ feedback for Zero and its FX personal. If these bikes fit into your requirements: lucky you. They could never fit into mine.
 

Crissa

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Where do you read all that?
Then HD put NDA's on anyone and everyone, sued the top executives. Their was nothing tangible (or IP) for KTM or the such to purchase that HD didn't already get for $.05 on the dollar.
(emphaiss mine)

Harley backstopped them from going under for six months. Clearly the neither had investors who believed in them nor a plan on how to convert that to money.
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/how-did-alta-motors-drop-its-price-by-30-percent

How did they drop they price? Well, that might have been why they were doomed.

There would be a lawsuit
'Would be' is not 'sued'

The bikes where selling good and 50% better every quarter.
...And yet they dropped the price by 30%?
Sales figures are not something private equity has to disclose, so...

The investors have to be patient until the SOC kick in.
And yet they needed Harley to stay open their last six months.

To Zero and the FX that I "denigrate": they beat nothing and they replace nothing in a global scale. They might be an option for people who commute in areas with warm and dry weather, but in general no option for people who want to race or want to travel with their bikes (in sum the vast majority in my experience).
And yet you denigrate it.

The XT500 is refueled in 2 mins, the FX needs 1.5 hours for another 80mi. If you crank out the 5.8kWh of an MXR or EXR offroad, you definitely need the time the battery refuels for refueling yourself. That's why Alta replaced something. And that's why they do not exist anymore.
Only one thing there is true. You can refuel the XT500 quickly.
It has a little more range on a Zero; it has less power, torque, and a little less weight but not by much. The Alta is a little more peak power, but that's because it uses a larger motor, like what is in the Zero S or DS but on a smaller frame. Alta ends up with a lower top speed because of its design. Throw onto that an absolutely massive offboard charger (optional on the FX, which can charge with its included onboard charger from an RV generator for instance)

They were basically giving away these bikes. No wonder Harley pulled out.

And saying they have no use: That's ridiculous. And insulting. And that's why we can't have nice things.

-Crissa
 

PLC

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There is no denigration involved when I say you cannot race or travel with Zero bikes. It's just a fact. A little more torque and a little more power doesn't do the trick to charm away the fact they are running out of battery soon and you have to invest at leat 1.5h to go on. No one buys an XT500 because of power or torque in the first place. And no one buys an MXR or EXR because of topspeed. You obviously don't know the sport.
And HD did not pull out after Alta lowered the price, in fact they went in after Alta lowered the price. The money to lower the price (to increase sales and use the economies of scale) came from Grassy Creek. You obviously don't read the content you are linking.
 

OneLapper

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Alta lowered the price to sell more bikes, they were too expensive. To offset the lower price, Alta used funds provided by HD. Essentially they started selling the bikes to dealers at cost to meet a price point. They then told dealers they would get settlement credits if they sold existing inventory at the new price. Those credits never got to the dealers before Alta went under. It was a shit deal all the way around and no one was happy in the end.

Sales were good but early adopters were generally older, wealthier guys, not exactly the 250/350/450 motocross dems.

No ICE motocross company wanted Alta to succeed. Probably not even Harley Davidson!
 
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Crissa

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There is no denigration involved when I say you cannot race or travel with Zero bikes. It's just a fact.
And yet most motorcycles aren't used for that. I suppose it's like the boat that sits in the yard or the raised truck that never sees a muddy hill climb.

A little more torque and a little more power doesn't do the trick to charm away the fact they are running out of battery soon
If you race. If you use them like a normal person, they last for hours. And your recharge times are... wonky.

No one buys an XT500 because of power or torque in the first place. And no one buys an MXR or EXR because of topspeed. You obviously don't know the sport.
...power to weight does matter. The FX blows away the Alta for operation time, range, and pillion load. Torque is how you use it, but Alta couldn't find their market, so maybe it's you who doesn't know?

And HD did not pull out after Alta lowered the price,
...that's fine, I didn't say that.

in fact they went in after Alta lowered the price. The money to lower the price (to increase sales and use the economies of scale) came from Grassy Creek. You obviously don't read the content you are linking.
Which it seems they should've kept the price higher so they didn't need HD's money to operate for the last six months.

You obviously didn't read the argument you're making. You don't lower prices before you have the economy of scale. Tesla didn't do that.

-Crissa
 

Crissa

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No ICE motocross company wanted Alta to succeed. Probably not even Harley Davidson!
Ehh, probably Harley, as they needed to find the next thing. They wouldn't have gotten a total look at the books until they'd signed their deal.

Bailing so quickly would mean that look wasn't a good look - it wouldn't have been enough time to trade much tech. Harley already had their own designs and money trouble. They probably hoped Alta's balance sheets were more positive to support the Harley e-bike program and found it was a loss.

-Crissa
 

PLC

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You don't lower prices before you have the economy of scale. Tesla didn't do that.

-Crissa
You should take an economyclass from time to time. You need to sell to get the scale. And for that you need to meet a pricepoint and you need an investor who is believing in the product and willing to hang on. Except you want to stay in a niche for ideological enthusiasts like Zero does.
 

ldjessee

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I plan on getting the 'charge tank' option, as recharging faster seems like a better use of that space and weight on the bike than more battery.
To charge from empty to full is 2.5 hours using the charge tank charger, but a significant amount of that is the last 20%. It is much better to recharge to 80% then ride it down to 10-20% and recharge.
That is how I plan on doing longer rides on a Zero (assuming I get one, which I am seriously considering).
Of course, I took 8.5 days to ride 1400 miles up-to and around Lake Michigan on an ICE motorcycle. I am NOT a believer in trying to cover as many miles in a day as you can.
 

Crissa

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You should take an economyclass ...
...Maybe you should figure out why selling bikes below cost when you don't have enough cash to make it through the year is a bad idea.

There's no economy of scale if you never have a factory with it. That's what Tesla had, and Alta didn't.

-Crissa
 

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