Driving in Snow

[FutureBoy]

Watch Tesla Model Y Performance Driving In Deep Snow
Well, maybe not that deep but it's doing quite well, considering it's on all-season tires.





Jan 15, 2022 at 7:47pm ET
4
By: Mark Kane


Tommy L Garage continues its exploration of the Tesla Model Y Performance in winter conditions, and after two episodes about a snowy driveway (here and here), it's time to check the car on snowy roads.

Let's recall that the car is equipped with all-season tires. Nonetheless, the result are pretty good, which might be an important input for those wondering whether to stick with all-season tires or not.
The car copes well on roads fully covered by fresh snow, and - thanks to all-wheel drive - does not get stuck, even when starting uphill from a full stop.
However, according to the video, it's worth noting that the regenerative braking might lock the wheels, which is dangerous. The advice is to set regenerative braking at low/disable. Tommy L Garage found that it's better to select Roll setting, so the vehicle becomes free rolling like a vehicle in Neutral at low speeds.
There were some braking tests with a conclusion that it's "definitely slippery," but nothing really scientific. We guess that without winter tires, the speed should be kept low.

Anyway, the video proves that the Tesla Model Y, even with all-season tires, is pretty well suited for basic winter driving and the all-wheel-drive helps a lot.

The smooth control of electric drive is a huge advantage of electric cars, not only Tesla.
On the other hand, it's not a proper scientific test to be able draw conclusions. We must also remember that for better performance (braking, higher speeds), specialized winter tires would be a good idea.
Hopefully, we will see more tests of EVs in winter conditions with repeatable and measurable tests that would allow us to see how good they are overall and in different settings.

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[FutureBoy]

I can't wait to do these kinds of tests in a CT4. I'm hoping it does even better than what we see in the video. Plus with the extra time waiting for CT production, perhaps Tesla can work on making regenerative braking safer in snow conditions.

I'm really hoping that the CT basically has nearly physics-defying abilities in snow, water, mud, overlanding, rock-climbing, etc. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Crissa]

EVs have very fine control over the spin of the tires; they're very heavy, with a low center of gravity so their sweet spot of traction will be easier to hit.

To me, this is what creeping around in a manual front-wheel-drive or all-wheel-drive car looks like. You have some control, but not all the control, just don't go fast.

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

EVs have very fine control over the spin of the tires; they're very heavy, with a low center of gravity so their sweet spot of traction will be easier to hit.

To me, this is what creeping around in a manual front-wheel-drive or all-wheel-drive car looks like. You have some control, but not all the control, just don't go fast.

-Crissa

Yes, just don't go fast. Momentum is amazing in the snow. It doesn't matter how good your tires/tech/driving is. At some point, momentum will just take over.

 

[Quicksilver]

Wheel lockup on a slick road was always a problem with Class 8 trucks equipped with engine brakes (Jake Brakes to the layman) especially if the truck had a higher compression two stroke Detroit diesel engine. I scared myself more than once until experience taught me better.
When I was on a slick road or in heavy rain I always cut the Jakes off or put them on their lowest setting if so equipped.
I can see the issue with wheel lockup on an EV using regenerative braking especially if you came off the go peddle fast.
There is always a learning curve on any new vehicle. Hopefully the learning isn't too expensive.

 

[Crissa]

I loved my Honda Civic in the snow. Front wheel drive manual transmission was amazing in snow. I had full control of whether my tires stuck or not.

-Crissa

 

[Dusty]

Random tangent...

Would anyone here be interested if Tesla made a Model Y or X in a casual adventure version with 30-33" tires, 250-275 mile range, and a suspension with a 4-5" inch lift?

Maybe it's me, but I like the idea of a vehicle being super resistant to the environment rather than being "sporty".

 

[HaulingAss]

I can't wait to do these kinds of tests in a CT4. I'm hoping it does even better than what we see in the video. Plus with the extra time waiting for CT production, perhaps Tesla can work on making regenerative braking safer in snow conditions.

I'm really hoping that the CT basically has nearly physics-defying abilities in snow, water, mud, overlanding, rock-climbing, etc. We will have to wait and see.

I have extensive experience driving all kinds of vehicles on snow and ice surfaces and have constantly pushed the limits and explored the differences that make some setups more capable in situations with greatly reduced traction. Because much of my experience has been on very rural roads with minimal other traffic, I have never shied away from pushing the limits of traction and discovering just where the limits are. When it was relatively safe to do so, I've basically treated slippery roads as a road rally course.

My goal was typically not to do big slides and drifts but to drive as fast and competently as possible without losing control and crashing. In areas where it was safe to lose control, I would push harder. In areas where a loss of control would result in bad things happening, I left a reasonable (to me) margin for error. I define winter capability more by how well the vehicle stays in control as speeds are increased and how well the car can maintain control when hitting particularly low traction spots or other trouble spots like dips/bumps that may be difficult to see and plan for, icy, off-camber corners, etc.

How capable the vehicle is off-road in deep snow is less important to me because that's not what I generally need when it snows although this is a separate category of snow/ice performance that is worth being aware of.

One further point: The most important factor in winter drivability is suitable tires and all further discussion must be taken with that understanding. If you want winter performance but you are not willing to install winter tires, then we don't need to talk about this subject any further. Because that is more important than 2WD or 4WD, electronic traction aids or not, nothing is more important than having modern winter tires. Studs on mud and snow tires does not qualify. All Season tires do not qualify. If you are the person that says "I have all-season radials and AWD so I don't need winter tires", please just escort yourself out now because we don't need to have that discussion.

With that background out of the way, back to the Cybertruck.

One important factor that I've almost never seen discussed but that has proven to me time and time again to be an important factor in good ice/snow performance is that lighter wheels with less rotational inertia perform significantly better, especially on cars equipped with electronic traction aids. On cars without electronic traction aids a heavier wheel with more rotational inertia can make the vehicle easier to retain control while sliding and drifting but a lighter wheel is still advantageous for a skilled driver to negotiate a winter course with the most speed and staying in the most control with the greatest margin of safety.

Why is lightness and reduced rotational inertia in wheels and tires such a good thing? Because winter driving challenges are primarily a function of trying to maintain traction. And that involves applying power or braking forces while maintaining as much traction as possible. When your tires slip, whether it's due to braking or acceleration, it's because they are turning a different speed relative to the vehicle. The wheel speed needs to "catch up" or "slow down" to match the vehicle. But the less traction there is, the longer this takes. Under the most challenging conditions it is so slippery that the rotational momentum of the wheels and tires can take significant time to "catch back up" and regain traction.

A light wheel and tire, with it's lower rotational inertia, is huge advantage in terms of how controllable a vehicle is and that advantage becomes increasingly important the more slippery the surface becomes. Under the most challenging conditions it becomes overwhelmingly important because there is less traction available with which to match the speed of the tire to the vehicle and thus they spend a much higher percentage of the time in a mismatched state of speed.

The Cybertruck with it's 3500 lbs. of cargo rating is at a disadvantage here because tires capable of meeting the vehicles capability are not going to be light or have low rotational inertia. Those serious about getting the ultimate winter performance and not needing the high payload/towing capacity, at least not in winter, could voluntarily de-rate the GVWR to a lower number and install considerably lighter wheels and tires (while ensuring the truck is not used beyond the new, lower limits).

Don't think that Cybertruck can magically defy the same physics that every truck with it's capabilities must abide by. Yes, Cybertruck will have much better snow/ice handling vs. any ICE pickup due to the inherent advantages of an EV drivetrain (especially the Quad motor version) and it will likely beat other EV pickups (comparing dual motor to dual motor and quad motor to quad motor, etc) due to it's adjustable and likely more sophisticated suspension (not to mention Tesla's greater experience with electronic traction aids on EV drivetrains). And it will have more deep snow capability (obviously) compared to any existing Tesla but don't expect a dual motor Cybertruck to have better snow/ice roadholding than the best, lighter duty, EV's like the Models 3 & Y.

All that said, existing pickups are crappy in the snow/ice compared to a Model 3 or Model Y (even if they can handle deeper snow). Dual motor Cybertruck will be MUCH better than the best existing trucks. Tesla will likely have the lightest, most responsive wheels that meet the vehicles capabilities. Those interested in the best winter performance will have to be careful to avoid buying aftermarket wheels primarily for looks while ignoring their rim weights. Stick with the wheels with the lightest weight and smallest rim diameter for the best winter performance so watch the weight of the winter tires you equip it with as those are significant contributors to rotational inertia.

Oh, yes, the Quad motor version will blow any other trim level of the Cybertruck out of the water when it comes to winter snow/ice performance. It will be the best truck on snow and ice (by far). It won't violate the rules of physics but it might fool you into thinking that it is.

 

[Crissa]

Random tangent...

Would anyone here be interested if Tesla made a Model Y or X in a casual adventure version with 30-33" tires, 250-275 mile range, and a suspension with a 4-5" inch lift?

Maybe it's me, but I like the idea of a vehicle being super resistant to the environment rather than being "sporty".

Oh, I would've been that market ten years ago!

The best way to learn where you'll lose control is to push to that point and... lose control. And then get it back.

-Crissa

 

[electricAK]

Why would you need to disable regenerative braking in the snow? I understand that the braking can cause wheel lockup, but wouldn't traction control detect the wheel locking and reduce the amount of braking accordingly? Or is there a reason regen braking can't be modulated this way?

I would think the software would detect wheel slip, and send extra power to that differential to reduce braking and get the wheel moving again.

 

[Crissa]

Well, braking control generally has to be taught about bad surfaces, and high regen can cause the same sort of slide as braking. Regen/engine braking is better than friction braking since it doesn't actually want to lock up.

So on my bike, regen is dumb, just like the brakes, and will happily cause the wheel to slide if it is set too high.

For the last twenty years, anti-lock braking has been required. But anti-lock regen and engine braking isn't. Very few vehicles have any sort of anti-lock programming for the regen/engine braking.

-Crissa

 

[electricAK]

Well, braking control generally has to be taught about bad surfaces, and high regen can cause the same sort of slide as braking. Regen/engine braking is better than friction braking since it doesn't actually want to lock up.

So on my bike, regen is dumb, just like the brakes, and will happily cause the wheel to slide if it is set too high.

For the last twenty years, anti-lock braking has been required. But anti-lock regen and engine braking isn't. Very few vehicles have any sort of anti-lock programming for the regen/engine braking.

-Crissa

For me, anti-lock regen is kind of the holy grail for a vehicle. I have to drive down a 400ft snowy/icy hill every morning.

I'd be surprised if Tesla isn't implementing this already. I'm sure it can be a difficult thing to tune (like all traction control loops) but it means the difference between traction and no traction in winter. Very important stuff. You wouldn't want your vehicle's regen feature (which is on by default) to cause you to crash!

 

[jerhenderson]

Watch Tesla Model Y Performance Driving In Deep Snow
Well, maybe not that deep but it's doing quite well, considering it's on all-season tires.





Jan 15, 2022 at 7:47pm ET
4
By: Mark Kane


Tommy L Garage continues its exploration of the Tesla Model Y Performance in winter conditions, and after two episodes about a snowy driveway (here and here), it's time to check the car on snowy roads.

Let's recall that the car is equipped with all-season tires. Nonetheless, the result are pretty good, which might be an important input for those wondering whether to stick with all-season tires or not.
The car copes well on roads fully covered by fresh snow, and - thanks to all-wheel drive - does not get stuck, even when starting uphill from a full stop.
However, according to the video, it's worth noting that the regenerative braking might lock the wheels, which is dangerous. The advice is to set regenerative braking at low/disable. Tommy L Garage found that it's better to select Roll setting, so the vehicle becomes free rolling like a vehicle in Neutral at low speeds.
There were some braking tests with a conclusion that it's "definitely slippery," but nothing really scientific. We guess that without winter tires, the speed should be kept low.

Anyway, the video proves that the Tesla Model Y, even with all-season tires, is pretty well suited for basic winter driving and the all-wheel-drive helps a lot.

The smooth control of electric drive is a huge advantage of electric cars, not only Tesla.
On the other hand, it's not a proper scientific test to be able draw conclusions. We must also remember that for better performance (braking, higher speeds), specialized winter tires would be a good idea.
Hopefully, we will see more tests of EVs in winter conditions with repeatable and measurable tests that would allow us to see how good they are overall and in different settings.

seriously.... there is like 5cm of snow on the ground and being first means no one else has packed down ice for you. When I get my CT and we get 30 centimeters overnight and I'm the 300th person to take the road I'll give you a real winter driving example.

 

[HaulingAss]

seriously.... there is like 5cm of snow on the ground and being first means no one else has packed down ice for you. When I get my CT and we get 30 centimeters overnight and I'm the 300th person to take the road I'll give you a real winter driving example.

I agree that pretty much any modern car with the same tires could have navigated those roads in the conditions shown although not many could add speed as quickly or corner at the same speeds with as much margin of safety.

But, until you have experience driving a Model 3 (I can't really speak to the Model Y in the snow/ice but I assume it is quite similar to the Model 3) in the snow and ice you can't understand just how much more control you have, even when compared to AWD cars like Subaru, Volvo and Mazda. There are a bunch of small reasons why the Tesla is better, and those add up to a considerable difference. Things like the steering geometry, suspension geometry, weight distribution and subtleties of throttle control come into play to create a superior snow/ice driving experience. i suspect the speed of electronic stability aids are quicker too. The more dicey the traction becomes, the bigger the difference you will notice in the Tesla's relative capabilities.

 

[OneLapper]

It's all about the tires.

My crappy little TDI Jetta that I put 600k miles on would go anywhere with good quality snow tires. Narrow tires, front wheel drive, open diff, no traction control, no problems. Keep the momentum up, pick your line, hammer down.

AWD and 4WD with snow tires is all that much better.

The CT with appropriate snow tires and it's ground clearance is going to be amazing.




Speaking of amazing, I really hope the CT has "Hill Descend Mode".

I had a 2007 BMW 330 6spd with HDM. It was amazing. Put the car in neutral, hit the button, and the car would creep down slippery hills with amazing control. No foot on brake pedal. Sadly, my 2014 BMW 328d does not have HDM, but the X3 loaner I got from the dealer did.

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