Long trip/Overlanding/Remote use case…

[Deleted member 3316]

7) go slow for more range. Off road is harder though in that softer surfaces like sand can take 3-4 times as many kWh as a dirt road, and even a dirt road can be 50% worse than a bitumen sealed road.

I’m not sure this is entirely true.



The energy required is the same no matter the drive train. Electric drive trains are more efficient so EV should be better off road.

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[Deleted member 3316]

And on the edges of the Sahara (if taken liberally), there is electricity, and some of them in the last 10 years being solar.

Thought this might interest you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

 

[John K]

I thought these problems were solved with time crystals?

 

[Ogre]

I thought these problems were solved with time crystals?

Those weren’t time crystals you took, it was crystal meth.

 

[John K]

Plant based solution. Don’t eat or smoke until the trip is complete.

https://www.wur.nl/en/show/plants-create-energy.htm

 

[ldjessee]

Thought this might interest you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_updraft_tower

I actually knew about this from a sci-fi novel from a decade or two ago it features in it and I had to look it up to see if it was real or just sci-fi magic...

I was happy to find it was real (but maybe not as practical as other solutions). Very interesting for deserts!

 

[ldjessee]

Thanks @ldjessee some really interesting insights.

In Australia there are plenty of trips where you can drive 500miles without a hint of civilisation. Then when you do find some semblance civilisation it would unlikely be connected to a national grid.
What I intended with this thread was addressing the difficult edge cases. The onerous ones that coal rollers would mic drop.

What are the solutions to make trips in these areas analogous to the current experience of carrying all the required fuel and not waiting for the vehicle to be ready for the next leg.

Some changes are obviously required but a transition away from fossil fuels will need to address these use cases directly.

I think infrastructure will play a large part but other innovative solutions that mimic the status quo need to also be considered.

National Grid is not the only way to get electricity. Yes, with such a low population density, Australia would provide a huge challenge... if there was not so much solar potential. With the price of solar continuing to fall, as is battery storage, especially with the Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistries.

What is the wind potential for central Australia? As the price for wind is still going down, but I think it will eventually slow down before solar, as it has moving parts.

 

[Ogre]

National Grid is not the only way to get electricity. Yes, with such a low population density, Australia would provide a huge challenge... if there was not so much solar potential. With the price of solar continuing to fall, as is battery storage, especially with the Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistries.

What is the wind potential for central Australia? As the price for wind is still going down, but I think it will eventually slow down before solar, as it has moving parts.

Seems to me that solar powered outposts with a megapack for storage for charging vehicles is much more sustainable than driving fuel to remote parts of the country. Big upfront costs, but maintenance would be quite low and it would last for decades.

Not sure how much a depot like that would cost. Maybe $5m - $10m USD? Once it’s installed you basically print money for 20 years. One suitable for semis would be a bit more substantial.

 

[JBee]

Seems to me that solar powered outposts with a megapack for storage for charging vehicles is much more sustainable than driving fuel to remote parts of the country. Big upfront costs, but maintenance would be quite low and it would last for decades.

Not sure how much a depot like that would cost. Maybe $5m - $10m USD? Once it’s installed you basically print money for 20 years. One suitable for semis would be a bit more substantial.

The routes we are talking about here in Australia wouldn't see a semi as there is no people along the route to supply, and maybe a few thousand cars a year traverse it, with a 1000km between fuel stops. So putting a solar megapack/powerpack powered Supercharger there would never pay for itself, it wouldn't even make interest payments. Atm you have to take all the fuel with, or organise a fuel drop.

Also travel should happen in convoys along that route, meaning multiple CTs would need to charge at the same time, and it would need around 5-6 charge locations along the route because of the extra energy use of sandy driving conditions. They recommend 14 days for the trip, so only 120km/70miles a day because of the rough terrain. So onboard solar charging would be more useful amd cost effective I think to reach those per day range numbers.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

National Grid is not the only way to get electricity. Yes, with such a low population density, Australia would provide a huge challenge... if there was not so much solar potential. With the price of solar continuing to fall, as is battery storage, especially with the Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistries.

What is the wind potential for central Australia? As the price for wind is still going down, but I think it will eventually slow down before solar, as it has moving parts.

Much of the early development and research into commercial solar voltaic panels was done in Australia by the once government owned Telco provider Telecom.

I think what is hard with these conversations is understanding scale required for specific scenarios… it’s unlikely to be a generic solution. An installation in a community would be quite different to a system designed to function similarly to a fuel dump. (See @JBee comment)

There are solutions but initially each one is disproportionally complex in comparison to the relatively simple heritage of the liquid fuel systems.

To be clear, I think factory Hybrid drive trains (Prius, Jeep etc) are counterproductive to a transition.

However a system that enables any BEV to function as a hybrid could be the transition technology that would actually encourage a transition whilst the infrastructure for challenging business cases are built out.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

So putting a solar megapack/powerpack powered Supercharger there would never pay for itself, it wouldn't even make interest payments.

This is what I think might actually happen, but clearly there is no functional business case to implement it. The challenge is convincing either government or a automotive group to subsidise it or a joint project between the two with a grant.

The convoy issue also complicates it from a safety perspective, along with the tiny proportion of the 4x4/overland community that finds humour and pride in vandalism.

I think the solutions will not be entirely analogous to the current experience and have the potential to be significantly better.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

14 days for the trip, so only 120km/70miles a day because of the rough terrain. So onboard solar charging would be more useful amd cost effective I think to reach those per day range numbers.

I think the cumulative effects of solar charging might get lost to the mic drop arguments from coal rollers.

A solar tonneau, rear glass and bonnet generating 30km/day could extend the range over 14 days from a nominal 500km to 920km. 40km/day it’s over 1000km.

Couple that with a day at one of a few solar canopy oasis and these trips don’t seem so insurmountable.

No need for hybrid systems unless an absolute time/speed imperative dictates.

 

[Cybertexla]

ive read through most of this, and many good points of discussion have been raised. I doubt that my addition to the conversation may add any earth shattering insight.

I just thought to share some of my practical experience with over landing.

While all of my over landing experiences has occurred in ICE vehicles with a very large portion of that experience in service with the military but not exclusively so.

in the service we had to plan logistics to outfit and travel large distances with many people to support the mission but also to, feed, shower, sleep, carry all necessary gear, fuel, munitions, weapons, navigation, communication, medical, mechanical repairs, extremes in both weather and terrain conditions, with considerations to contingencies, enemy defense or engagement, with the ability to call aerial support and so on and so forth, you get the picture.

I realize what the discussion is really about is recreational over landing and adventure, however many of the things required in planning such an excursion with any amount of successful and enjoyable completion still requires many of the same components I hastily outlined above.

The limitation or weakness with an EV as the primary choice of transportation would be renewing of the energy.
Compounding the problem in no particular order….
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating and Cargo Capacity, Personnel Capacity, Hauling Capacity.
Vehicle Capabilities such as Approach Angle, Departure Angle, Breakover Angle, All wheel drive, Drive train Power, perhaps a winch or two.
Then add your logistical equipment, food, cooking equipment and cooking fuel, water, medicine, repair tools, spare parts, spare tires, sleeping gear, tents, blankets, sleeping bags, pillows? What comfort level for how many people? If you are so remote maybe a Sat Phone, or Ham Radio, GPS, back up maps for contingency’s. All of this adds to weight.
A solar solution of recharging would require….well Sun, so inclement weather would be a factor that could leave you isolated for extended periods. I suppose portable electric windpower may help, such as those on sailing vessels.
An ICE generator would require fuel, additional weight and cargo space, and a battery generator would require recharging along with cargo space.
So tow a trailer, which creates more energy drag for the EV but adds cargo capacity.

I see many challenges with an edge case extended remote adventure as the goal but self sufficiency has to be logically planned out, if no help is expected or anticipated under any contingency.

This however is the same logistical problem faced with ICE vehicles in extreme remote conditions as well.

I just wanted put a practical spin on the subject, and the challenges that would have to be considered or met.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

I doubt that my addition to the conversation may add any earth shattering insight.

It does highlight the 95th percentile the thread is intended to discuss thanks for engaging.

a very large portion of that experience in service with the military but not exclusively so.

The military is one of the places that electrification could have great benefits and the solutions they can innovate would be applicable and greatly beneficial to civilian applications… However… military industrial complex is currently wedded to the fossil fuel industry….sooooo…. (Slowly backs away, this is not the topic we’re discussing)

This however is the same logistical problem faced with ICE vehicles in extreme remote conditions as well.

I just wanted put a practical spin on the subject, and the challenges that would have to be considered or met.

A solar tonneau, rear glass and bonnet generating 30km/day could extend the range over 14 days from a nominal 500km to 920km. 40km/day it’s over 1000km.

The military context can not accommodate a failure rate the civilian context can… But many military solutions are readily applicable to civilian use cases.

 

[HaulingAss]

A solar solution of recharging would require….well Sun, so inclement weather would be a factor that could leave you isolated for extended periods. I suppose portable electric windpower may help, such as those on sailing vessels.

Wind power of a scale small enough to overland would be totally impractical and would not add significnt range unless you were in a nice gale most of the time. The ones you see on sailboats don't do much more than keep the batteries from slowly draining.

The reason wind power is effective is due to the extreme scale of modern turbines. They continue to get larger and larger. Wind travels very slow at surface levels and it's impractical to get them 50-100 feet off the ground on an overland journey.

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