New 4680 battery chemical makeup coming

[Coltpete]

From @JoeTegtmeyer on x:

"Some exciting insights into efforts going on at Giga Texas concerning revising 4680 chemistry composition of elements & cell changes underway right now in the northwest corner of the main factory.

At the end of 2023, the 4680 battery chemical composition ratios in Cathode material was NMC 811 (80% Nickel, 10% Lithium, 10% Cobalt). However, Tesla is finishing the process of transitioning over to NMC 955 now that we are in 2024.

They are also trialing asymmetric lamination with one side of the laminated material thicker than the other. The expectation is this will increase the amount of jelly roll that can fit into the 4680 can. [Deleted sentence]

With both of these changes, Tesla will be able to increase the capacity of the 4680 battery initially used in 2023 by a further range of between 10-20%.

As a side note, NMC 955 is just the latest chemical makeup, but Tesla is also testing NMC 973 which we may see at some point later in 2024."

This is very exciting news and suggests as production ramps we'll be seeing an improvement with range and possibly charging speed. Anyone else have any information about this? Joe is usually a very good source of Tesla information.

Given what we've seen so far the CT in its current form isn't for me. But with an improved charging curve and/or range I'm in. I'll be waiting until that time comes. Hopefully it's by the time my 1284xxxx order gets here!!

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[cvalue13]

Anyone else have any information about this?

I can add that:

The pack size, in terms of total energy density, changed/improved in just the last several weeks before launch.

There are MCs out there with smaller total kWh than what is now advertised.



I suppose my only question is how does Tesla roll this out anytime soon. It’s one thing to change just before release. Would be another to change just after.

 

[kpanda17]

Guys,
Fantastic thread topic. When thinking about completely dry cell 4680, is that after these two iterations in 2024 of 955 and 973?
Please detail this steps and match to the generation terminology of the 4680 we have been tracking:
Gen 1 used in past Austin MY RWD, terrible range and charging curve
Gen 2 fall 2023 in CT and current MY RWD, 10% range improvement and better charging curve
Gen 3
3a Hybrid dry cell? 2024
3b Dry cell 2025
955 and 973

please correct my information as I am not the expert you are

 

[scottyah]

The two biggest complaints about the CT, Price and Range, are probably both mostly easily addressable in the battery components. It's great to hear progress is being made, from what I hear it's a lot harder to make a much better battery than it is to add awesome features like drive by wire or rear wheel steering.

 

[Coltpete]

The two biggest complaints about the CT, Price and Range, are probably both mostly easily addressable in the battery components. It's great to hear progress is being made, from what I hear it's a lot harder to make a much better battery than it is to add awesome features like drive by wire or rear wheel steering.

Agreed. I love the CT and it's features, if they could improve either one of those aspects it would make a big difference. I'm most excited for future development in the chemical composition of the batteries and from what it sounds like it's a simple upgrade for Tesla to make on their battery production line once the composition is set. The only people who miss out are the early adopters, which is why I'm happy to wait a bit.

 

[REM]

from what I hear it's a lot harder to make a much better battery than it is to add awesome features like drive by wire or rear wheel steering.

You are correct, good sir. I believe battery chemistry has the largest impact regarding value and performance for the new CT platform.

 

[HaulingAss]

Agreed. I love the CT and it's features, if they could improve either one of those aspects it would make a big difference. I'm most excited for future development in the chemical composition of the batteries and from what it sounds like it's a simple upgrade for Tesla to make on their battery production line once the composition is set. The only people who miss out are the early adopters, which is why I'm happy to wait a bit.

I'm going to be as early an adopter as possible (I've already configured my Dual-Motor). But that doesn't mean I will be missing out. I'm going to sell my first Cybertruck as soon as I can buy a substantially better one. That's why I have three reservations spaced out (#11278, #11288 and #11298). Yes, I will likely take about $20K-30K in depreciation on each upgrade but I can't take the money (or the Cybertrucks) with me when I die.

 

[rudedawg78]

Awesome news. I definitely hope to have the latest and greatest battery by the time the Cybertruck arrives to me. I'm not too impressed with the 4680 as is.

 

[EMoeller]

Batteries are the key to BEVs. The OP noted changes in the Cathode (where the energy is stored via rare earths, lithium, etc) in Tesla's 4680 battery. This is where most of the press is now.

BUT a much more exciting opportunity is in the Anode (graphite) side of the battery. Panasonic (Tesla's main supplier) is working closely with Sila (a stealth company founded by a former Tesla employee) that has developed and NOW is gearing up for production of a radically new Anode using silica. This work now results in energy densities of 740 wh/l (equivalent to solid state batteries now), with the goal of 1000 wh/l expected by 2030.

All of these improvements will get BEVs to 500 mile ranges and charging times of 10 minutes. My estimate is that this is still 2-3 years away, BUT I expect that time line to be fluid with Tesla and the CT leading this innovation. Tesla produced 20MM 4680 batteries in 2023 and is ramping up nicely. The production lines will not require significant changes to adapt these new chemistries.

Those of us who have Tesla stock and watch battery technology have been following this for some time. Attached is a nice summary from Wired magazine.

From my prospective as a CT FS purchaser this is all iterative and I want to purchase the latest tech now and upgrade in the future.

 

[Coltpete]

Batteries are the key to BEVs. The OP noted changes in the Cathode (where the energy is stored via rare earths, lithium, etc) in Tesla's 4680 battery. This is where most of the press is now.

BUT a much more exciting opportunity is in the Anode (graphite) side of the battery. Panasonic (Tesla's main supplier) is working closely with Sila (a stealth company founded by a former Tesla employee) that has developed and NOW is gearing up for production of a radically new Anode using silica. This work now results in energy densities of 740 wh/l (equivalent to solid state batteries now), with the goal of 1000 wh/l expected by 2030.

All of these improvements will get BEVs to 500 mile ranges and charging times of 10 minutes. My estimate is that this is still 2-3 years away, BUT I expect that time line to be fluid with Tesla and the CT leading this innovation. Tesla produced 20MM 4680 batteries in 2023 and is ramping up nicely. The production lines will not require significant changes to adapt these new chemistries.

Those of us who have Tesla stock and watch battery technology have been following this for some time. Attached is a nice summary from Wired magazine.

From my prospective as a CT FS purchaser this is all iterative and I want to purchase the latest tech now and upgrade in the future.

Thank you this is really good info!!

 

[kpanda17]

big 4860 updates yesterday, chems Tesla is working on 955, etc
google or checkout you tube

 

[FirstRLast]

From @JoeTegtmeyer on x:

"Some exciting insights into efforts going on at Giga Texas concerning revising 4680 chemistry composition of elements & cell changes underway right now in the northwest corner of the main factory.

At the end of 2023, the 4680 battery chemical composition ratios in Cathode material was NMC 811 (80% Nickel, 10% Lithium, 10% Cobalt). However, Tesla is finishing the process of transitioning over to NMC 955 now that we are in 2024.

They are also trialing asymmetric lamination with one side of the laminated material thicker than the other. The expectation is this will increase the amount of jelly roll that can fit into the 4680 can. [Deleted sentence]

With both of these changes, Tesla will be able to increase the capacity of the 4680 battery initially used in 2023 by a further range of between 10-20%.

As a side note, NMC 955 is just the latest chemical makeup, but Tesla is also testing NMC 973 which we may see at some point later in 2024."

This is very exciting news and suggests as production ramps we'll be seeing an improvement with range and possibly charging speed. Anyone else have any information about this? Joe is usually a very good source of Tesla information.

Given what we've seen so far the CT in its current form isn't for me. But with an improved charging curve and/or range I'm in. I'll be waiting until that time comes. Hopefully it's by the time my 1284xxxx order gets here!!

Correct me if I’m wrong here but weren’t they originally shooting for a 30% increase with the 4680 and then right before the Cybertruck rollout said they only got to around 10%. This additional 10% to 20% increase coming seems totally reasonable considering what you can assume was a lot of calculation that went into that original 30% goal. Anyways glad to hear it. The range and charging curve as is won’t suite my needs. I know they will improve the charging curve through software but the range improvement will be more in line with the minimum I require if they make these improvements.

 

[gilynOr]

Batteries are the key to BEVs. The OP noted changes in the Cathode (where the energy is stored via rare earths, lithium, etc) in Tesla's 4680 battery. This is where most of the press is now.

BUT a much more exciting opportunity is in the Anode (graphite) side of the battery. Panasonic (Tesla's main supplier) is working closely with Sila (a stealth company founded by a former Tesla employee) that has developed and NOW is gearing up for production of a radically new Anode using silica. This work now results in energy densities of 740 wh/l (equivalent to solid state batteries now), with the goal of 1000 wh/l expected by 2030.

All of these improvements will get BEVs to 500 mile ranges and charging times of 10 minutes. My estimate is that this is still 2-3 years away, BUT I expect that time line to be fluid with Tesla and the CT leading this innovation. Tesla produced 20MM 4680 batteries in 2023 and is ramping up nicely. The production lines will not require significant changes to adapt these new chemistries.

Those of us who have Tesla stock and watch battery technology have been following this for some time. Attached is a nice summary from Wired magazine.

From my prospective as a CT FS purchaser this is all iterative and I want to purchase the latest tech now and upgrade in the future.

You're right, the battery is the key here. I hope that by the time I get mine, they will have made significant advancements in their development. If even the Chinese are talking about atomic batteries that can keep gadgets running for years without recharging, I'd like to maximize all the possibilities and I think it's possible to do so, even though I'm not a chemistry expert.
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