The Cyber Truck may pay for itself.

[ajdelange]

No other Tesla on the market has this capacity. Currently the inverters they use are 1-way and can only turn AC into DC to stuff into your battery.

An inverter is a one way device that inverts DC every half cycle making it into AC. A device that turns AC into DC does so by making sure that the current always flows in the same direction. This is called a rectifier.

They are going to have some kind of inverter onboard for providing AC power, but it's not clear if that will feed back through the charging cable or not.

It is pretty clear that this inverter is only for energizing the AC outlets in the bed (and elsewhere if they have them elsewhere).

If they ever do allow the CT to become part of a V2G system the interface to the inverter will probably be high voltage DC connected directly (through fuses and contactors) to the battery with the rectifier/inverter in an external box but that's not the only way they could do it. That external box would probably look to the grid very much like a Powerwall.

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[Crissa]

I don't want to cycle my Cybertruck battery for V2G... If I have a battery for my house, it will be dedicated.

That's fine, but cycles between 40-60 basically don't count.

And it'll just be sitting there.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

Someone needs to pay for this infrastructure. You need a new wall charger and you need to install a transfer switch at the meter.

I might be willing to share power back to the grid, but not willing to pay for the privilege. I don't lose power enough to drop $3,000 on a backup setup so while that would be nice, it's not super $3k nice.

 

[Crissa]

I just hope it'll be possible. I want to be able to use all that energy that's just sitting there.

-Crissa

 

[Quicksilver]

Someone needs to pay for this infrastructure. You need a new wall charger and you need to install a transfer switch at the meter.

There will also have to be an "islanding switch" to keep from back feeding the grid if it goes down. This protects linemen who are working to restore power.
Some power companies may even require liability insurance in case of a back feed.

 

[Ogre]

There will also have to be an "islanding switch" to keep from back feeding the grid if it goes down. This protects linemen who are working to restore power.
Some power companies may even require liability insurance in case of a back feed.

Yep. I was just trying to keep it simple. Getting that installed is likely the most expensive piece. I guessed $3000, but it may well be a lot more than that.

 

[JBee]

If Tesla doesn't do it some other manufacturer will. In particular if that manufacturer has limited battery production and doesn't make powerwalls, they will want to get into the energy market the easiest and most cost effective way. And that way is V2G.

As for battery cycling I don't think thats going to be an issue for the 4860 cells, especially so if they only need to use a small percentage of the battery to make it work. For example using 14% of a TM CT pack capacity is the same as 2x Powerwalls.

Many vehicles already have bi-directional capability, even apparently Tesla (at least in hardware but not software enabled). I currently cannot imagine an alternative way to do network power buffering at lower cost than using V2G, so I'd say Tesla will be forced to participate at some point.

 

[ajdelange]

There will also have to be an "islanding switch" to keep from back feeding the grid if it goes down. This protects linemen who are working to restore power.
Some power companies may even require liability insurance in case of a back feed.

Anti-islanding is a critical part of a system but it doesn't necessarily require a switch. The microinverters in a solar system are typically tied directly to the grid (no switch) and do the anti-island function by repeatedly checking for grid presence (measuring its impedance, for example). If the grid goes down they simply shut off.

You don't want that to happen if you have Powerwalls. You want the solar cells to continue to operate to charge the Powerwalls and the rest of your house. In this case you isolate the Powerwalls and solar array from the grid with a switch (contactor). The contactor is just a contactor but the "Gateway" it sits in does a deal more. It is the brains of a Powerwall system and so it is worth a K or more. It controls up to 10 Powerwalls.

Are the standards bodies struggling to come up with standards that will allow V2H and V2G? Yes there are. Are other vehicle manufacturers looking into this? Yes. Ford is advertising it for the Lightening and there are pilot programs in a few places. Is Tesla a part of these? Never seen any indication that they are and that's why I am requesting OP to tell where he saw this.

What Tesla has done is, IMO, just brilliant. They build a box, the Powerwall, which can run a PV array when the utility is down and either take power from or send power to the utility when it is up. Up to now this has been used for load smoothing etc. e.g. taking power from the utility at such times as rates are low and then not taking any when rates are high running the house at those times on what was stored earlier (cheap rate utility plus sun). The only standards the system has to meet are those that the utilities currently accept for privately owned power sources such as windmills, generators, solar arrays and backup battery systems. An individual Powerwall system can be commanded to send as much power as its inverters can produce less the load of the system (house) it is wired into and the commands can be sent over the internet. Thus Tesla can do what any other power generating company can do: sell electricity to anyone who wants to buy it (a utility) and they can be on line in minutes. This is, IMO, as brilliant as the Supercharger network.

This is all working on, at least, a trial basis with Powerwalls in a few places. The real question of interest here, of course, is as to whether Tesla will ever use the batteries in its vehicles as the storage medium. Musk has always said no to this in the past and everyone has assumed that was because he didn't want to compete with himself on sales (why buy Powerwalls to do what your car can do?). But things are different now. He is competing with himself for parts (batteries, chips) and cannot supply Powerwalls to meet demand. Perhaps, if becoming an energy producer using YOUR hardware is profitable enough, he will start thinking of using the cars as a storage medium.

I would never sign up to use my truck in such an application. Trucks are for truckin'. I am not sure I would put my Powerwalls into such an agreement either. I suppose that would depend on whether the compensation was sufficient to cover the additional "wear" on the batteries.

 

[JBee]

But things are different now. He is competing with himself for parts (batteries, chips) and cannot supply Powerwalls to meet demand. Perhaps, if becoming an energy producer using YOUR hardware is profitable enough, he will start thinking of using the cars as a storage medium.

I would never sign up to use my truck in such an application. Trucks are for truckin'. I am not sure I would put my Powerwalls into such an agreement either. I suppose that would depend on whether the compensation was sufficient to cover the additional "wear" on the batteries.

Exactly. The market is quickly changing, and along with supply issues this will drive demand to make things more "resource efficient". Battery day highlighted the supply problem overall, and is also why Tesla is so heavily investing in those areas.

It would be interesting to see some numbers on how many Powerwalls have been sold, and how much battery capacity that represents in Tesla cars to compare. It's obvious that Powerwalls are being sold at a premium in comparison to the batteries in their cars.

And that leaves us with the argument of battery cycling and longevity. Batteries also degrade from old age without being used, not just from cycling and the cheaper the batteries get and the more cycles they can do the less relevant the cycling argument becomes. The question is at what point is it more profitable to run a EV battery to buffer network load or to propel a vehicle. The numbers might not be what you expect, seeing that a unused asset typically devalues faster than a used one, simply because you are not getting a ROI. If you can establish a good turnover on the network by both importing and exporting power to balance the grid via Autobidder, replacing your car for a new one along with better batteries every few years could completely negate any concerns regarding battery cycling, and make you a neat profit in the process.

And for Tesla they would sell more cars, so not a bad thing either, especially so if customers learnt to appreciate the extra versatility of V2G/V2H without having the extra cost of Powerwalls. The more EV's there are, the more EV's will be plugged in, either at home or work, that can buffer the grid and at the same time allow for even more renewable penetration of the grid which in turn reduces power costs further. It just makes so much cents.

P.S. Currently there's about 25 times the energy conversion capacity in ICE cars then there currently is in grid electricity generation. So there would be heaps of buffer capacity through V2G cars even if only a small proportion was connected to the grid at any time, of course once we have enough EV penetration in the market.

 

[LDRHAWKE]

I would imagine Tesla will start listing this as a a super charging station for your home, and an option when you buy a Cybertruck, now that they are a serious on the grid power company player and would like access to the, up to 10 Power Walls stored In the Cybertruck. The super charging station will probably be priced as competitively as possible and under the present single power wall since it won’t need batteries and smaller in size.. Tesla lists the cost of one battery 13.6 kWh pack power wall at $7,500 excluding $1,000 for the Gateway, a device that acts as the engine of the installation; and actual installation charges of about $3,500.

I would imagine the new AI software will give owner options to control and limit the draw down and the ability to opt out or in at your desire. I would also imagine it would be set up to recharge with cheaper power outside of peak demand on the grid using AI. A solar roof would be simply a plus option.

Why do it. Three reasons. 1. Your Cybertruck becomes back power for your home. 2. It will be a source of income, either in reduced energy bill or direct payments, that will be driven by demand and your State regulations. 3. It is the future of a more stable and cheaper electrical energy supply in the world.

 

[ajdelange]

If, would, should, might, could, imagine.... I'm still looking for some hard (even under the Elon Musk level of firmness) that Tesla is planning to do something like this with the CT.

Without even having a solar roof, a Cybertruck will be able to be wired into your home charging system or a charging station and be able to be connected to the Tesla Virtual Power Grid.

So I ask again for some credible support for that statement.

 

[LDRHAWKE]

If, would, should, might, could, imagine.... I'm still looking for some hard (even under the Elon Musk level of firmness) that Tesla is planning to do something like this with the CT.




So I ask again for some credible support for that statement.

oh you doubting Thomas…..recommend rewatching the YouTube video with attention to the cartoon characters…..?. A better question is why wouldn’t Elon do this?

 

[ajdelange]

Several and I gave one in an earlier post.

But the point I really want people to get is that this is yet another one of those "The AWD will really have 800 mile range" posts that get people all wound up only to be eventually let down. You list yourself as an engineer. You have the sophistication and experience to understand what's plausible and implausible but a lot of readers here don't. They will believe you when you state as fact what is only fantasy at this point.

As an engineer I know better than to say it won't happen the way you envision. As an engineer you should know better than to say it will.

 

[LDRHAWKE]

Oh you doubting Thomas…A good engineer also makes the effort to keep up to date before sticking foot in mouth. ?


Join the Tesla Virtual Power Plant (Beta)
The California grid operator forecasts a continued need for Californians to support the grid through 2021. Help create the largest distributed battery system in the world and avoid dependence on the least efficient fossil fuel power plants. Opt-in to the Tesla Virtual Power Plant (VPP), and Tesla will dispatch your Powerwall when the grid needs support while continuing to maintain your energy security.
Benefits of Participation

• Stabilize California’s Grid: The extra capacity your Powerwall provides could help avoid or reduce blackouts in a severe emergency. This way, Powerwall can keep the lights on for both you and your community.
• Clean the Grid: Tesla will dispatch your Powerwall when the grid is in critical need of additional power. That is when the least efficient generators would typically come online.
• Unite as a Tesla Community: Team up with other Powerwall owners who are accelerating the world’s transition to sustainable energy and help form the largest distributed battery in the world — potentially over 50,000 Powerwalls. As part of the VPP, your Powerwall will have an outsized positive impact on the grid over traditional demand response programs.
• Keep Your Energy Security: Powerwall will discharge during VPP events but won’t discharge below your backup reserve. Adjust your backup reserve to control your contribution while maintaining backup energy for outages.
• Export Credits During Peak Periods: You don’t need to change your home energy usage behavior to participate. Additionally, if you’re part of a net energy metering (NEM) program, you may earn net metering credit for your energy sent to the grid during events.

Event Behavior
A few hours prior to an event, you will receive a push notification informing you of event times. Depending on the forecasted severity of the event, your Powerwall may prioritize charging from your solar system in advance of the event to help shift your home’s grid use to earlier in the day. If Powerwall fully charges before an event, your solar system will resume powering your home and export any excess power to the grid.
When the event begins, you will receive a push notification reminding you of the event end time, and your Powerwall will begin discharging to support the grid. Your Powerwall will discharge until the event ends, or when it discharges to your selected backup reserve level. No action is required on your part to participate in the event, but you may raise or lower your backup reserve level at any time during the event.
Eligibility
The Tesla Virtual Power Plant is available to PG&E, SDG&E and SCE customers who own Powerwall and solar. Enrolling requires the Tesla app 3.10.14 and a new Powerwall firmware version which will be released soon.
Note: Some utilities may place additional limits on participation.
Frequently Asked Questions About Tesla VPP
How do I enroll in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant?
Step 1: Open the Tesla app, and switch to your home.
Step 2: Tap ‘Customize.’
Step 3: Scroll down to ‘Tesla Virtual Power Plant.’
Step 4: Tap the switch on, and follow the prompts to enroll.

How do I unenroll in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant?
Step 1: Open the Tesla app, and switch to your home.
Step 2: Tap ‘Customize.’
Step 3: Scroll down to ‘Tesla Virtual Power Plant.’
Step 4: Tap the switch off to opt-out.
You may tap the switch back on at any time during the program.
What can I expect my Powerwall to do when there is an event?
You will receive push notifications informing you when an event is scheduled and when it begins. Events will be scheduled a few hours prior to discharge, and discharge will typically take place during the grid’s peak hours in the afternoon.
Tesla will securely command your Powerwall to discharge to the grid up to the maximum power approved by your utility. Most Powerwalls will discharge at levels similar to peak solar production on summer days. Prior to some events, your Powerwall may reduce the power it provides to your home to maximize the amount of energy it can discharge during the upcoming event.

Can I opt-out of dispatches?
Yes — during an event, you can increase your backup reserve level to limit your Powerwall’s discharge. Prior to an event, you can tap the VPP switch off to opt-out. As the Tesla Virtual Power Plant (beta) continues to evolve, you can expect to have more ways to control your participation.

How do I ensure that I will have enough energy for backup power?
A push notification will inform you that there will be a VPP event. You can adjust your backup reserve level then or at any time, based on your own risk of outage.
If rotating outages occur due to grid emergencies, and your home is in a curtailed block, an outage can last about 1 to 1½ hours. Other grid blackouts or Public Safety Power Shutoff (PSPS) events may be longer in duration. If outages are planned, check with your utility for the expected duration.
If an outage occurs during the event, your Powerwall will still provide you with energy security using its stored energy.

Will participation in this program impact my electric bill?
Tesla expects most events this summer to occur during typical peak hours for many time-of-use rate plans. Participating in the event will shift energy exports to periods that are later in the day compared to typical exports. If you are eligible for compensation under a NEM program, you may earn different credit for exporting at different times.

Does Tesla earn money from the Tesla Virtual Power Plant in California?
As of launch, the Tesla Virtual Power Plant is a public good program to support the California grid, and there is no compensation for Tesla or customers. While customer compensation for this program is a possibility in the future, in the meantime customers are encouraged to participate in the program and mobilize the excess capacity of their Powerwall systems.

Why am I not eligible to enroll in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant at this time?
Tesla is working with utilities and regulators to make the Tesla Virtual Power Plant the largest distributed battery system possible, but it also needs to address immediate needs. If you are a California Powerwall customer but you are not eligible to enroll in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant at this time, Tesla may need to coordinate with your utility, or your Powerwall may already be in another program supporting the grid. Tesla will continue working to expand the Tesla Virtual Power Plant across California.

Why is this a beta program?
Tesla has introduced the California Virtual Power Plant in anticipation of potential grid emergencies this year. As the summer season progresses, we may modify the program, Powerwall behavior and app controls to meet the shifting needs of the grid.
Tesla Virtual Power Plant Agreement
Thanks for agreeing to support the California electrical grid using your Tesla Powerwall. This Agreement describes the terms you are agreeing to by participating in the "Tesla Virtual Power Plant."

1. Tesla Virtual Power Plant
   You agree to allow Tesla to control your Powerwall, including charging and discharging, to provide support to the electrical grid. You have the ability to set a minimum level of energy as a backup reserve ("Backup Reserve"). Tesla will not draw your Powerwall’s state of charge below your Backup Reserve, and will not discharge your Powerwall when the state of charge is already below the Backup Reserve. Except for honoring your Backup Reserve, Tesla may charge or discharge your Powerwall at any time and to any extent.
   
2. Voluntary Program
   Unless Tesla notifies you otherwise, the Tesla Virtual Power Plant is a voluntary program to support the electrical grid when it is stressed. You will not be compensated for participating, including for the electricity to charge your Powerwall or the use of your Powerwall. Tesla may determine to compensate Tesla Virtual Power Plant participants in the future, and will notify you of applicable compensation at that time.
   
3. Term
   Your participation in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant program will run from the time you opt in through the Tesla app, until you opt out or the Tesla Virtual Power Plant program concludes. You may opt out of the Tesla Virtual Power Plant at any time, using the Tesla app. In addition, Tesla may remove you from the Tesla Virtual Power Plant at any time for any reason.
   
4. Conflicting Programs
   If you are already participating in a separate demand response or similar program, the Tesla Virtual Power Plant may conflict with that program. By opting into the Tesla Virtual Power Plant, you agree that Tesla is not responsible for any conflict with such a program. If Tesla becomes aware of such a conflicting program affecting your Powerwall, we may remove you from the Tesla Virtual Power Plant.
   
5. Consent; Privacy Policy
   You agree that Tesla can disclose information about you and your Powerwall to your utility, as appropriate to administer the Program. That data may include, but is not limited to, information about your home’s energy usage, and information produced by your Powerwall. Tesla and your utility may disclose the same data, in anonymized form, to regulators and the public. Tesla’s Customer Privacy Policy is part of this Agreement and can be viewed at www.teslamotors.com/about/legal.
   
6. Limitation of Liability
   You agree that your and Tesla’s total liability for all damages of any kind arising out of this Agreement will not exceed $500. You also agree that neither you or Tesla will be liable for any incidental, special or consequential damages arising out of this Agreement. You acknowledge that as a result of participating in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant, your Powerwall may have a reduced charge during a power outage, and you may lose power. Tesla will not be liable for any loss of power relating to the Tesla Virtual Power Plant.
   
7. Governing Law
   This Agreement is governed by California law.
   
8. Agreement to Arbitrate
   Please carefully read this provision, which applies to any dispute between you and Tesla, Inc. and its affiliates (together “Tesla”).
   
   If you have a concern or dispute, please send a written notice describing it and your desired resolution to [email protected].
   
   If not resolved within 60 days, you agree that any dispute arising out of or relating to any aspect of the relationship between you and Tesla will not be decided by a judge or jury but instead by a single arbitrator in an arbitration administered by the American Arbitration Association (AAA) under its Consumer Arbitration Rules. This includes claims arising before this Agreement, such as claims related to statements about our products.
   
   We will pay all AAA fees for any arbitration, which will be held in the city or county of your residence. To learn more about the Rules and how to begin an arbitration, you may call any AAA office or go to www.adr.org.
   
   The arbitrator may only resolve disputes between you and Tesla, and may not consolidate claims without the consent of all parties. The arbitrator cannot hear class or representative claims or requests for relief on behalf of others purchasing or leasing Tesla products. In other words, you and Tesla may bring claims against the other only in your or its individual capacity and not as a plaintiff or class member in any class or representative action. If a court or arbitrator decides that any part of this agreement to arbitrate cannot be enforced as to a particular claim for relief or remedy (such as injunctive or declaratory relief), then that claim or remedy (and only that claim or remedy) shall be severed and must be brought in court and any other claims must be arbitrated.
   
   If you prefer, you may instead take an individual dispute to small claims court.
   
   You may opt out of arbitration within 30 days after signing this Agreement by sending a letter to: Tesla, Inc.; P.O. Box 15430; Fremont, CA 94539-7970, stating your name, product and intent to opt out of the arbitration provision. If you do not opt out, this agreement to arbitrate overrides any different arbitration agreement between us, including any arbitration agreement in a lease or finance contract.
   
9. Authority
   By opting into the Tesla Virtual Power Plant program, you represent that you own or have authority to control your Powerwall, and that you own the utility account associated with the address at which the Powerwall is installed. You agree that Tesla may rely on your representations in this Section 9.

 

[ajdelange]

Well we engineers are not known for our interpersonal or reading skills and so I guess I'll have to suggest that you read what I posted in number 23 in which I briefly described the system, how it works and how ingenious I think it is. Since you didn't bother to read it there I'll say again that I think this scheme is, for brilliance, on a par with the conception of the Supercharger network.

And to reiterate again: I am not looking for confirmation of Tesla's scheme. I am looking for some hint that it may involve the trucks (or cars) at some time in the foreseeable future.

I really hope Tesla's entry into the power supplier market turns out to be a huge success and that this is reflected in the stock price!

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