HW3 lawsuit in EU over no retrofit availability

[not_elon_]

I hope this is the beginning of us getting FSD transfer for our 60K cybertrucks

Sponsored

 

[Cayden Thompson]

I agree.

 

[dalton108]

I hope this is the beginning of us getting FSD transfer for our 60K cybertrucks

Here's a link as none was provided in the original post: https://electrek.co/2026/04/14/tesla-fsd-europe-hw3-owners-dutch-claim/

I'm not sure what one (HW3 v. HW4 in the UK) has to do with the other (CT FSD transfer here in the US) though?

 

[not_elon_]

Thanks for adding the article link. I’ve always assumed Tesla was waiting the HW3 people out as a strategy to avoid having to figure out a retrofit. I’m hoping all the HW3 people will get offered FSD transfers indefinitely into the future.

 

[dalton108]

Thanks for adding the article link. I’ve always assumed Tesla was waiting the HW3 people out as a strategy to avoid having to figure out a retrofit. I’m hoping all the HW3 people will get offered FSD transfers indefinitely into the future.

Gotcha! They’ve done the hard update in the past I fully expect them to do it here. Elon has already expressly obligated the company to do so at no cost so it’s really not a question. I think the lawsuit is premature and unnecessary, but I certainly get the frustration.

Timing was good for me across the board it was easy to upgrade all of my vehicles to HW4 and I was able to take advantage of the first ever offer of FSD transfer (which was supposed to be a one time deal) from my M3P to my MSP. And then we got to do it again on my wife’s MY to MX.

But with Tesla, timing can just as easily bite you in the ass and more likely than not the end result is negative I think for most people. And I don’t think they have good strategies in place to smooth things over when it goes sideways for loyal customers.

 

[REM]

Frivilous lawsuit, and I hope they have to pay crazy-high fees for trying.

 

[Scorpious]

They are working on consolidating the software to work basically at a different bit rate to downport it. That should happen later this year (late summer) which will most likely mean hardware will not be needed.

 

[sefar]

Gotcha! They’ve done the hard update in the past I fully expect them to do it here. Elon has already expressly obligated the company to do so at no cost so it’s really not a question. I think the lawsuit is premature and unnecessary, but I certainly get the frustration.

Not sure what you mean by premature. I have a 2018 MS with FSD that works a little but not nearly as well as in my CT. Musk has admitted HW3 won't ever do what he promised when we bought it and yet no real steps to remedy the situation have occurred. The retrofit would be horribly expensive at this point, requiring new cameras as well and I suspect the cost would exceed the value of the HW3 vehicles themselves. It would be cheaper to refund the 10k cost. If a class suit hits in the US it is going to be a multi million dollar fix and will reach back to prior owners on some basis.

But for his promises, Tesla would rely on the fact that FSD has always been a work in progress and evolves but with the appearance of the Robotaxi and the acknowledgement that HW3 won't ever achieve what was promised I think Tesla will be hard pressed to find a painless way out of the situation.

Not sure that an indefinite transfer of FSD subscriptions is workable since that is now a fully subscription model rather than a one time purchase. To the extent that that was a business rather than a regulatory decision it can be massaged of course.

 

[dalton108]

Not sure what you mean by premature. I have a 2018 MS with FSD that works a little but not nearly as well as in my CT. Musk has admitted HW3 won't ever do what he promised when we bought it and yet no real steps to remedy the situation have occurred. The retrofit would be horribly expensive at this point, requiring new cameras as well and I suspect the cost would exceed the value of the HW3 vehicles themselves. It would be cheaper to refund the 10k cost. If a class suit hits in the US it is going to be a multi million dollar fix and will reach back to prior owners on some basis.

But for his promises, Tesla would rely on the fact that FSD has always been a work in progress and evolves but with the appearance of the Robotaxi and the acknowledgement that HW3 won't ever achieve what was promised I think Tesla will be hard pressed to find a painless way out of the situation.

Not sure that an indefinite transfer of FSD subscriptions is workable since that is now a fully subscription model rather than a one time purchase. To the extent that that was a business rather than a regulatory decision it can be massaged of course.

I mean the standard meaning of the word. There’s no breach as of this moment. You have FSD. Your car drives itself. Some people were promised full autonomy. Not everyone. They 100% changed the offer after they added (supervised) to the name of the product.

I’m not gonna get into any deeper or longer legal analysis than that. And as far as the suit in the UK I have no idea what remedies or rights they have. A breach may have already occurred under their law. I think they’re premature but I don’t know and I’m not gonna spend a lot of time debating it.

For anybody who bought FSD when Elon was still promising full autonomy with the purchase, no breach has occurred until he says I can’t do full autonomy with your hardware and I’m not going to offer you a free upgrade. Until then, there’s nothing to talk about.

Anybody who bought after he changed the name of the product to full self driving supervised— you have exactly what you paid for. Today. Caveat emptor.

Will the product improve and get better? Yes. Were you promised full autonomy? No. Some of us were, though.

I do think, however, Elon‘s conditional promise to upgrade HW3 to HW4 is probably binding. However, the condition was if they couldn’t get it to work. They’re still trying to do that.

 

[sefar]

I mean the standard meaning of the word. There’s no breach as of this moment. You have FSD. Your car drives itself. Some people were promised full autonomy. Not everyone. They 100% change the offer after they added (supervised) to the name of the product.

I’m not gonna get into any deeper or longer legal analysis than that. And as far as the suit in the UK I have no idea what remedies or rights they have. A breach may have already occurred under their law. I think they’re premature but I don’t know and I’m not gonna spend a lot of time debating it.

for anybody who bought FSD when Elon was still promising full autonomy with the purchase no breach has occurred until he says I can’t do full autonomy with your hardware and I’m not going to offer you a free upgrade. Until then there’s nothing to talk about.

Anybody who bought after he changed the name of the product to full self driving supervised. You have exactly what you paid for. Today. Caveat emptor.

Will the product improve and get better? Yes. Were you promised full autonomy? No. Some of us were, though.

I do think, however, Elon‘s conditional promised to upgrade HW3 to HW4 is probably binding. However, the condition was if they couldn’t get it to work. They’re still trying to do that.

Fair points except that he has admitted it won't work. Like you, I don't know the ins and outs of EU law but I do know what it is here in the States. Saying we are working on it after acknowledging that it won't work is not an indefinite safe harbor. IF there is litigation in the US, and that is a big if since it hasn't yet happened, Tesla will inevitably have to demonstrate that they are "trying" to get it to work. Given the expense with no hope of a return to the company for HW3 vehicles, I will venture a guess that no real resources are being put forward in that direction. Like Ford decided with the Pinto, it is cheaper to litigate than to fix the issue. Ford made that decision when human life was at risk and didn't go broke, Tesla's risk is much smaller.

The big question to me is what are the damages beyond the cost of FSD? Few folks, me included, could truthfully say they wouldn't have bought the vehicle but for the promise of true FSD and even fewer could say they have gotten NO benefit from the package at all. That leaves a depreciated purchase price for FSD as the measure of damages, with the meter starting when Tesla knew that it wouldn't work. I bought my 2018 in 2020 directly from Tesla making a small window for knowing misrepresentation vs a mere warranty claim.

 

[dalton108]

Fair points except that he has admitted it won't work. Like you, I don't know the ins and outs of EU law but I do know what it is here in the States. Saying we are working on it after acknowledging that it won't work is not an indefinite safe harbor. IF there is litigation in the US, and that is a big if since it hasn't yet happened, Tesla will inevitably have to demonstrate that they are "trying" to get it to work. Given the expense with no hope of a return to the company for HW3 vehicles, I will venture a guess that no real resources are being put forward in that direction. Like Ford decided with the Pinto, it is cheaper to litigate than to fix the issue. Ford made that decision when human life was at risk and didn't go broke, Tesla's risk is much smaller.

The big question to me is what are the damages beyond the cost of FSD? Few folks, me included, could truthfully say they wouldn't have bought the vehicle but for the promise of true FSD and even fewer could say they have gotten NO benefit from the package at all. That leaves a depreciated purchase price for FSD as the measure of damages, with the meter starting when Tesla knew that it wouldn't work. I bought my 2018 in 2020 directly from Tesla making a small window for knowing misrepresentation vs a mere warranty claim.

I agree with all of your points. The only thing is I think he has been equivocal, as usual, on the status of HW3. I’m pretty sure they just recently said that they’re having success with optimization. I don’t know, but that is question of fact, not law. I agree with your legal analysis.

 

[BrockN]

We upgraded to a Y from a 3 when FSD transfer was offered. That was the carrot. When it came time to take delivery, I got a message 'confirming that we were OK with a made in China Y', because that's where demand was forcing them to come from for the Canadian market. I asked if there was any difference and was told 'no, but MiC might actually be put together better'. So I agreed.

Later I learned that China was still installing HW3, while N.A. was installing HW4. The overlap was several months, and we ended up with HW3 in spite of being told there was no difference between the origin of the cars. A made in USA Y bought at that time would have had HW4 installed.

I'm spicey about that still. My CT stats are sitting at 91%, but I don't ever use it in the Y (except perhaps on the highway once in a while), because that older software sucks ass in comparison. I bought it, but in this form it's essentially useless to me. And after 6 almost 7 years, I'd like to get some value from that FSD purchase.

Sponsored