Here's why convenience stores are not rushing to install EV chargers

Ogre

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How do you propose making direct use of solar without storage?
You need some kind of storage or alternative source for when Solar is not available. Aside from that, you price power based on relative abundance and the problem will solve itself.

If power costs $0.01/ kWh during the day time and $0.30/ kWh during the evening, people will come up with creative ways to use that cheap power.
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The obvious answer would be to use chemistry, use the solar to provide energy for any of several chemical processes that result in a valuable product. Desalination is one example.
There are plenty of use cases for solar that won’t require storage but; why would storage be excluded? These disingenuous arguments just illustrate the ignorance of system design and the lack of understanding of the (counterintuitive) efficiency in complexity.
 

Crissa

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There are plenty of use cases for solar that won’t require storage but; why would storage be excluded? These disingenuous arguments just illustrate the ignorance of system design and the lack of understanding of the (counterintuitive) efficiency in complexity.
It's not that it's excluded, it's that cheap power can make lots of other things happen. Storage is only one way. We should be open to the possibilities.

-Crissa
 

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It's not that it's excluded, it's that cheap power can make lots of other things happen. Storage is only one way. We should be open to the possibilities.

-Crissa
Yes, I know it’s not going to be excluded, I’m flabbergasted that some people think it’s a valid argument to suggest solar can’t work without storage therefore the whole thing is bunk and we should stick with fossil fuels…
 

mhaze

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There are plenty of use cases for solar that won’t require storage but; why would storage be excluded? These disingenuous arguments just illustrate the ignorance of system design and the lack of understanding of the (counterintuitive) efficiency in complexity.
Perhaps in some cases. But the arguments could also represent full knowledge of system design and thus not be disingenuous.

Batteries are expensive; one small system I have has $1000 in a 200Ah 12 Li battery. Another small system was not implemented because the battery system would have made it not cost-effective compared to grid power. etc., etc.
 


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Perhaps in some cases. But the arguments could also represent full knowledge of system design and thus not be disingenuous.

Batteries are expensive; one small system I have has $1000 in a 200Ah 12 Li battery. Another small system was not implemented because the battery system would have made it not cost-effective compared to grid power. etc., etc.
The reason storage was brought up was to argue solar can’t be a solution to our energy needs. I find it most tiresome to see such disingenuous ideas perpetuated.
 

Crissa

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Perhaps in some cases. But the arguments could also represent full knowledge of system design and thus not be disingenuous.

Batteries are expensive; one small system I have has $1000 in a 200Ah 12 Li battery. Another small system was not implemented because the battery system would have made it not cost-effective compared to grid power. etc., etc.
It is, now.

But you need to compare it to the other option with similar abilities. Grid power didn't heat my home last night, so what would it it compare to?

You have to add all the costs it replaces together, not hold it against a single one.

-Crissa

PS, I bought one of those 12v LFP batteries. It cost $1200. It replaced a $300 AGM, so that's one. It also replaced a solar battery, so that's two. It's lighter than getting both, so... what is the cost of not having another 50lbs and 2cu used in my packing? It also will last ten years instead of the five of the AGM, so... that's actually doubling that. And it came with its own low voltage cut-off,tho I already own own, so I can move it to another device.

1200 LFP 10 years
-300 AGM 5 years
-300 second 5 years
-300 mobile solar pack
- 50 low voltage cut-off
- ? Extra space from smaller battery
= not so overly priced now, is it?

A home battery replaces some UPS extra batteries, it replaces some generator use, and it displaces some grid power.

Gotta add all that up, plus the additional reliably of having it on hand all the time, especially with solar. No worries when the power will go out and you come back to a dead fish tank and stinky spoiled fridge.
 
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firsttruck

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Perhaps in some cases. But the arguments could also represent full knowledge of system design and thus not be disingenuous.

Batteries are expensive; one small system I have has $1000 in a 200Ah 12 Li battery. Another small system was not implemented because the battery system would have made it not cost-effective compared to grid power. etc., etc.
Are you talking about quantity twelve (12) of 200AH Li batteries for for 12 x 200AH capacity?

What voltage is each of the twelve (12) of 200AH Li batteries?

Are the quantity twelve (12) of 200AH Li batteries actually individual 3V cells or are they quantity twelve (12) of 200AH Li battery, each battery made of quantity four (4) 3V cells in series?
 

firsttruck

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The cells are kinda irrelevant to the battery? Honestly... unless you're building a battery.

-Crissa
I asked the way I did because it is pretty common for people to call a single cell a "battery".

He said "Batteries are expensive; one small system I have has $1000 in a 200Ah 12 Li battery."

How is that so "expensive"?

Any business day in Mexico I can walk into a local supplier and buy (no delivery fee) or get delivered in 2 days for fee of 20 USD:
700 USD each Battery LiFePO4/LFP 12.8V 200Ah 2560Wh Built-in 50A BMS & 3 year warranty

I could save money by buying direct from China.

You can get with free delivery to USA

------------------

USD 650 each Ampere Time 12V 200Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Battery With 2560Wh Energy Max. 1280W Load Power Built-in 100A BMS, 10 Years Lifetime 4000+ Cycles, Perfect for RV Solar Energy Storage Marine Trolling motor
https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-LiFePO4-Overland-Off-Grid-Application/dp/B088RM4W48

.....
Q: Are you a drop-shipping company. if no, where are you located in usa? where to send battery for warranty issues?
A: A: We have a warehouse in California. As long as the warehouse has stock, we will ship goods from the CA warehouse. You don't need to worry about the warranty. If there is any problem with the battery, you can return it to the warehouse after we help to analyze.
By Huiling Zhang on January 22, 2021

Q: In stock in the united states or in stock in china ? let me know before i cancel my order.
A: In stock USA. I believe it shipped from California.
By mtsailordude on May 30, 2021

Q: If I have a warranty issue, where would it be shipped to and who pays for shipping and repairs?
A: You can contact the dealer in the U.S for any problems, most likely they’ll send you a new one! Contact information is with the battery package
By Tony L. on January 11, 2021


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Crissa

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firsttruck

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Ogre

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I asked the way I did because it is pretty common for people to call a single cell a "battery".

A single cell is a battery. Likewise a pack is a battery. A factory that manufactures 4680s is a battery factory, they manufacture batteries. A factory that assembles them into packs is also a battery factory. It’s easier to just disambiguate by saying cell or pack when in doubt.

I would blame English for this confusion, but it’s more of an engineering thing than a language one.

Anyhow. Not trying to correct you, but it confused me for a bit so perhaps someone else might be confused.
 

mhaze

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The reason storage was brought up was to argue solar can’t be a solution to our energy needs. I find it most tiresome to see such disingenuous ideas perpetuated.
Okay.

I'm just a guy that has some solar systems in use, like on commercial signs where we didn't want to trench and run 120v wires, ranch gates, other places where my calculations showed that was the best and most cost effective method. Doesn't bother me to use grid power where it makes sense.
 

mhaze

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12v
Are you talking about quantity twelve (12) of 200AH Li batteries for for 12 x 200AH capacity?

What voltage is each of the twelve (12) of 200AH Li batteries?

Are the quantity twelve (12) of 200AH Li batteries actually individual 3V cells or are they quantity twelve (12) of 200AH Li battery, each battery made of quantity four (4) 3V cells in series?
12v * 200A = 2400 aH. Sorry I noticed I misstated; 200AH is wrong. Well, it makes sense in a way; yes they are "200 hours of one amp at 12v". But not enough sense.

So, I wanted 3 days backup 24/7 on a 2A 120v load. Guess what that'd take? 2a * 120v * 72 hours? And the cost of that would be 4-5k USD. Too expensive and thus impractical.
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