Here's why convenience stores are not rushing to install EV chargers

[Ogre]

Article seems to suggest they have at least a small station set up.

Another Ballard-powered one-megawatt system is currently in use in Martinique. Electricity generated by this system is sent to the Martinique electrical grid, supporting an energy diversification strategy.

Though perhaps thats more like a POC.

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[Crissa]

Article seems to suggest they have at least a small station set up.

Though perhaps thats more like a POC.

Yeah, they had one back in 2013, too. One megawatt is great, but, we need these all over, not just one at a time.

Which is my frustration with the product so far.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

Yeah… honestly I think if they haven’t figured this out by now the chances are only getting lower as new technologies mature. LFP and maybe Sodium-Ion are going to help spread out the material demands.

 

[anionic1]

...Because the wind doesn't blow all day and the sun doesn't shine the same amount all year?

-Crissa

Really outside of large scale grid green energy conversions to solar or wind. The best option we have is to put large battery packs at stores with large solar arrays.

Lets say you could get a solar canopy of about 3000 sf. That would put you around 50kW per hour of good sunlight. lets say national average is 4.5 sun hours per day that's 225kWh per day. probably realistically about 3 or 4 decent fast charges. Teslas battery packs are about 80-90% efficient. The megapack or large battery pack in the range of 2000 kW to 4000 kW would charge 40 cars which is probably about right for a convenient stores daily demand. The solar would recharge the packs somewhat during off peak hours and the battery packs would handle the peak hours. The grid would recharge the packs off peak and could do so at a relatively low amperage so as to not require major overhalls to the utilities to the site. 200 amps over 10 hours while the store is closed could recharge the mega pack at 480v.

The solar would be about $150k. The canopy about $150k. The battery pack about $500/kw installed so $1.5M. Lets say another $200k in electrical modifications. cost of 4 ea. superchargers installed $300k. So lets call it $2.3M installed. lets say there are 20% in incentives. lets call it $2M even.

ROI:

Solar $56/day
Delta between what is paid in electricity vs. what is charged. lets call it $0.10/kWh. And lets say the average car is pulling 50kWh per charge. So $5 profit/car x 40 cars per day or $200/day.

So lets call it $250/day in revenue. Divide $2M by that $250/day and you get 8000 days or 23 years. Which is probably about the life of the system. So not really a great ROI.

Obviously there are other benefits like the additional sales that would be made for having additional car traffic at your store. if you could generate another $100/day in profit you could cut the ROI down to 15 years. also increasing the profit on charging to $0.15/kWh would reduce the ROI to about 13 or 14 years. So really getting that ROI closer to 10 years makes it seem like a doable investment, but $2M in upfront cost for a convenient store is a lot. Obviously they could just use grid power and that would be the most profitable but definitely not the most green solution.

 

[ldjessee]

I think comparing oil reserves to electrical storage is a bad comparison.

The energy efficiency of electrical vehicles and storage is so much more efficient than the refining of crude, transporting it, and the work you get from it.

That is how EVs with batteries storing a fraction of the energy found in a full gas tank of petroleum product can go a similar range, because of all the loses due to inefficiency with the ICE vehicle.

Look at Natural Gas vs Heat Pump. Natural Gas is cheap, but inefficient compared to a heat pump.

 

[Crissa]

That is how EVs with batteries storing a fraction of the energy found in a full gas tank of petroleum product can go a similar range, because of all the loses due to inefficiency with the ICE vehicle.

Exactly!

My Zero contains as much energy as is in a quarter gallon of gasoline, and yet... it can go 80 miles.

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 3316]

Much of the issue is context and use case related to the charging session. A fuel station was easily rolled out where ever there was a critical mass of through traffic. Reasoning by analogy will not provide the appropriate solutions related to this new technology.

This new paradigm and the advantages it offers include some complications that are not analogous to refueling but the subject is frequently discussed in the same terms.

Charging discussions frequently dismiss the context of the use case. Blanket solutions do not help understanding and simply invite objections and incredulity.

For example;

Convenience stores are quick stop places, the use case for ultra-fast chargers would have to include regular high volume through traffic. An inner city or suburban confidence store in unlikely to fit this criteria. Ultra fast chargers make sense in between cities on long distance highways where the interaction is max 20mins.

22 to 150kW chargers at big box stores where the vehicle will be be parked for 30-90 mins would have greater utility than an ultra-fast charger at a regular convenience store. Those same big box stores regularly accommodate RV parking overnight. There’s a way for these businesses to exact a more commercial relationship where both parties can gain a quantifiable benefit for the interaction. (Time restrictions, energy supply etc, etc)

Malls could provide access to level 1 charging with simple power outlets at regular intervals within the carpark, paid for with negligible parking fees paid by all whether charging or not.

The point is charging and refuelling are not functionally analogous and should not be discussed in the same terms.

 

[Crissa]

Convenience stores are quick stop places, the use case for ultra-fast chargers would have to include regular high volume through traffic. An inner city or suburban confidence store in unlikely to fit this criteria.

In the US, convenience stores are the core of neighborhoods. They're the watering holes spread more evenly than rest-stops on the highway. They're where you'd charge when visiting cross-town, the inlaws or friends at the edge of your range.

Charging would attract business that would otherwise have to take time traveling to the highway.

"They can just go to the highway" is why these places are often considered food deserts, too. It's not because there's no demand, it's because efficiency isn't efficiency for the consumer, it's corporate efficiency.

You want charging on your path, or very near your destination. There's probably a corner store there.

-Crissa

 

[charliemagpie]

they will find a way, but most will get exterminated by the new bigger and better, and cheaper and faster and stronger.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

In the US, convenience stores are the core of neighborhoods. They're the watering holes spread more evenly than rest-stops on the highway. They're where you'd charge when visiting cross-town, the inlaws or friends at the edge of your range.

Charging would attract business that would otherwise have to take time traveling to the highway.

"They can just go to the highway" is why these places are often considered food deserts, too. It's not because there's no demand, it's because efficiency isn't efficiency for the consumer, it's corporate efficiency.

You want charging on your path, or very near your destination. There's probably a corner store there.

-Crissa

Yes, but what is missing from this conversation is use case context, we’re still analogising refuelling.

Ultra-fast at a highway rest stop uses the refilling analogy. Planning to charge at a place you wanted to stop at anyway is better for the battery and requires cheaper infrastructure and less strain on local grid capacity.

Destination charging should be the norm in peoples minds, then in moments of spontaneity or suboptimal planning, the inconvenience of an ultra-fast charger can be used. But at high desirability destinations (quality/sentimental restaurant, entertainment establishment, natural attraction or scenic spot) charge rate can be optimised to the typical dwell time encouraging throughput maximising capacity of installation.

This, I think, is the premise of the article, that installing expensive infrastructure as a side hustle is a tenuous business case especially for low margin businesses.

Sure convenience stores might be the core of a community but do people really want to hang out there for an extra 10 to 15 minutes? Or more importantly do they want to be charged idle fees if they take a little longer than expected.

As much as we EVangelists don’t like to admit it ultra-fast charging is not actually convenient. EVs are not suited to cannonball runs…
but,
however,
in summation,

The paradigm shift in the zeitgeist of automotive norms will entail a slight irritation at having think about taking time out of your activities to charge rather than simply ensuring your vehicle is charging whilst engaging in the activities that prompted the travel in the first place.

 

[Crissa]

Sure convenience stores might be the core of a community but do people really want to hang out there for an extra 10 to 15 minutes? Or more importantly do they want to be charged idle fees if they take a little longer than expected.

Two failures in your assumptions:
The assumption that all EVs are long-range
The assumption that 15min is wasted vs... What, then? How far away is the charging station at the highway?

-Crissa

 

[Deleted member 3316]

Two failures in your assumptions:
The assumption that all EVs are long-range
The assumption that 15min is wasted vs... What, then? How far away is the charging station at the highway?

-Crissa

Them’s fighting’ words Crissa… I like a good back rub but you’ve got go easy with the friction.

I specifically stated we need to be including use case context in this discussion, a short range EV really shouldn’t ever need fast charging because their design parameters assume lower total utilisation subsequently enabling longer charge times.

Your second objection alludes to but doesn’t recognise that relying on really fast charging can actually be inconvenient and take more time out of your day.

I’m trying to steer the zeitgeist here but I understand it’s hard to shift out of the refuelling mindset.

You can lead your horse to water but it’s more efficient to take a ride in an autonomous EV.

 

[Crissa]

I specifically stated we need to be including use case context in this discussion, a short range EV really shouldn’t ever need fast charging because their design parameters assume lower total utilisation subsequently enabling longer charge times.

Weekend or rare trips being possible makes short-range cars more viable. Being a le to go to the edge of your range, charge up at the neighborhood third location, and hang with friends or relatives is an important consideration.

You can lead your horse to water but it’s more efficient to take a ride in an autonomous EV.

...Can't play a game that's not yet released, either.

-Crissa

 

[slomobile]

I think comparing oil reserves to electrical storage is a bad comparison.

The energy efficiency of electrical vehicles and storage is so much more efficient than the refining of crude, transporting it, and the work you get from it.

That is how EVs with batteries storing a fraction of the energy found in a full gas tank of petroleum product can go a similar range, because of all the loses due to inefficiency with the ICE vehicle.

Look at Natural Gas vs Heat Pump. Natural Gas is cheap, but inefficient compared to a heat pump.

A 42 gallon barrel of oil is roughly 1,700 kilowatt hours. That is the figure I used when doing the oil reserve comparison.

The number of watts it takes to accelerate a weight over a distance is consistent regardless of the energy form used. Efficiency is a function of the machine selected and doesn't really matter as long as you have sufficient energy available to get the job done.

Suppose an average electric vehicle is 80% efficient and an average gas vehicle is 30% efficient. That might require storing half as much energy in reserve. That is 121,380 times what the world actually has. If electric cars were 100% efficient(impossible), we would still need 72,828 times the entire worldwide installed capacity of Megapacks to do the same work as the national oil reserve of a single country.

Feel free to criticize the manner of comparison, but if you expect to replace the 'oil' way of life with 'electric', it would be nice to know if that is actually feasible.

I didn't even account for the thousands of gallons of fuel stored underground at every gas station around the world. That alone could run the world for a couple days. If every vehicle is electric and the grid goes down for a couple days, you have what is in your batteries and that is pretty much it. Compare the energy stored at a gas station to the UPS under your desk.

Each regional refinery also has huge tank farms to maintain production if pipelines stop delivering crude for weeks. That capacity is analogous to the present grid backup batteries that last for seconds to minutes.

 

[Crissa]

The oil reserve isn't used every day.

Your calculations are nonsense.

I'm sorry.

-Crissa

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