Here's why convenience stores are not rushing to install EV chargers

[Crissa]

At my employer the norm is a 4 hour charging limit. The charger actually starts charging you $1 an hour after that. Over 8 hours it jumps to $4 an hour.
We have 4 different lots will about 10 slots per lot. We used to have about 15k employees we are down to about 6k now at this location.

So you're expected to move your car at lunch? What a pain. And 6k employees in California would be expected to have about 200 EVs so far.

-Crissa

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[Ogre]

So you're expected to move your car at lunch? What a pain. And 6k employees in California would be expected to have about 200 EVs so far.

-Crissa

Or pay $4-5/ day. That’s not a big deal. Maybe if the rates were higher it might be more bothersome.

Most people who own EVs will charge at home so only a small fraction of the employees will need charging during the day. For the people who don’t have home charging, paying $15-30/ month or less to have your car topped off constantly is chump change. Likely would only need to deal with it 2-3 times a week.

The small fee keeps the leaches at bay so the people who need it are more likely to be able to use it.

 

[Crissa]

Yeah, but with 40 stalls for 200 vehicles and if they're using standard 6kW chargers that's >24kW which is about a hundred miles...

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

Yeah, but with 40 stalls for 200 vehicles and if they're using standard 6kW chargers that's >24kW which is about a hundred miles...

-Crissa

I guess don’t see the issue with that. Unless people are commuting more than 100 miles a day. Or are you thinking that’s more than they need?

 

[Crissa]

I guess don’t see the issue with that. Unless people are commuting more than 100 miles a day. Or are you thinking that’s more than they need?

They don't have enough of them, for regular use.

$4 for eight hours charging is too much money. So you'd have to swap spots at lunch. That's a cost of time. So might as well spend the $4 unless you can run out and do it in less than 4 ≥ wage / 60 * minutes. But standard chargers that charge money run at 3kW and above, usually 6.6kW but some more... Which is far more miles than someone will be using per day.

-Crissa

 

[SparkChaser]

I had a Ford Focus 23kwh EV with 80 mile range it would rechargei n about 2 hours so these were fast Level 2 chargers. I don't have it any more. They are upgrading all of the chargers this weekend and I believe they are going to level 3? I'll see what it is next week.

 

[SparkChaser]

At the Airport Maintenance Base the average commute is about 50 miles one way. The majority live in the east bay and some even in Sacramento or Tracy so there is much demand. I work swing and the spots are about 3/4 full dayshift is a total scrum from these spots. My commute is 11 miles but I am an exception.

 

[Crissa]

At the Airport Maintenance Base the average commute is about 50 miles one way. The majority live in the east bay and some even in Sacramento or Tracy so there is much demand. I work swing and the spots are about 3/4 full dayshift is a total scrum from these spots. My commute is 11 miles but I am an exception.

That is not the average commute in the Bay, tho. Wow.

-Crissa

 

[slomobile]

Soon we will start to see fuel cells supplementing ev charging during peak hours

I never thought hydrogen made sense for vehicles, but as a fixed local energy storage it makes sense because it requires no distribution network except the electrical grid. The real trick is safely automating hydrolysis, purification(dangerous to store unless pure), H storage, electrolyte and scale management, and burning in small electrical generators so it is just another big green box of infrastructure on the corner.
Eliminating any distribution of H to general public reduces the safety demands.

It is highly ironic given that it increases total electrical use, requires ICE equipment, increases low atmosphere ozone, directly adds heat to the atmosphere... what other irony have I missed?
But it also allows for city block scale outage backup and load balancing, and pure water as a byproduct. That byproduct could become a critical distributed resource as more things like Flint MI and Jackson MS happen.

 

[Bill906]

requires ICE equipment

Although I've heard of a few cases of using hydrogen as fuel for ICE applications, I believe most modern hydrogen discussions are hydrogen fuel cell applications.

 

[slomobile]

Although I've heard of a few cases of using hydrogen as fuel for ICE applications, I believe most modern hydrogen discussions are hydrogen fuel cell applications.

But that would be less ironic, and potentially drive that Alanis Morissette tune out of my head.

Is the fuel cell process technically combustion(an exothermic oxidizing process)? It occurs inside the fuel cell? Thats close enough to keep me groovin.

 

[Ogre]

Fuel cells are inefficient compared to batteries. When you lose 30-40% of the power in the round trip to hydrogen and back, it’s hard to find use cases that make a ton of sense.

The sole advantage they have is energy density once they get past a certain size. It might make sense for some application, but for fixed installations, energy density usually isn’t a problem. You can have a huge battery in a 10x10 area.

It might make sense for aircraft or heavy equipment which isn’t near power sources (logging operations maybe), but as soon as you can run a power line to it, you are saving massive energy costs.

 

[Bill906]

But that would be less ironic, and potentially drive that Alanis Morissette tune out of my head.

Is the fuel cell process technically combustion(an exothermic oxidizing process)? It occurs inside the fuel cell? Thats close enough to keep me groovin.

When your car rusts, that is technically an exothermic oxidizing process, but i wouldn't classify it as "combustion". An internal combustion engine end product is mechanical energy. The end product of a fuel cell is electricity.

Fuel cells are inefficient compared to batteries. When you lose 30-40% of the power in the round trip to hydrogen and back, it’s hard to find use cases that make a ton of sense.

The sole advantage they have is energy density once they get past a certain size. It might make sense for some application, but for fixed installations, energy density usually isn’t a problem. You can have a huge battery in a 10x10 area.

It might make sense for aircraft or heavy equipment which isn’t near power sources (logging operations maybe), but as soon as you can run a power line to it, you are saving massive energy costs.

Yes, fuel cell is significantly less efficient than using a battery. But is slightly better than ICE. Although the most efficient ICE application may be more efficient than the least efficient fuel cell application, apples to apples comparison, fuel cell should be noticeably more efficient.

 

[firsttruck]

But that would be less ironic, and potentially drive that Alanis Morissette tune out of my head.

Is the fuel cell process technically combustion(an exothermic oxidizing process)? It occurs inside the fuel cell? Thats close enough to keep me groovin.

There are two big reasons why hydrogen ICE is bad idea compared to hydrogen fuel cell.

1. Hydrogen ICE like all ICE typically would be 20%-35% efficient.

2. Main exhaust of Hydrogen ICE will be water but that is not only thing created.
Since air is not 100% oxygen you still get small amounts ofother dangerous pollutants ( nitrous oxides, CO, CO2, HC or PM).
Another substance that you will burn a little bit in ICE is small amounts (or sometimes larger) of motor oil which again creates dangerous pollutants.


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Why Are Car Manufacturers Ignoring Hydrogen Engines?
Quora Contributor
Jun 27, 2017
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...rs-ignoring-hydrogen-engines/?sh=1bfa0e7a4027

.....
However, an internal combustion engine (ICE) running on gasoline (the Otto cycle) or Hydrogen operates at thermodynamic efficiency level of around 20–25%.

On the other hand, a fuel cell that converts H2 and Oxygen into electricity to feed an electric motor operates at an efficiency level of 60% or even greater. Gasoline (or diesel) cannot be used in a fuel cell.


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Fuel Cells
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/fuel-cells

.....
Fuel cells have several benefits over conventional combustion-based technologies currently used in many power plants and vehicles. Fuel cells can operate at higher efficiencies than combustion engines and can convert the chemical energy in the fuel directly to electrical energy with efficiencies capable of exceeding 60%. Fuel cells have lower or zero emissions compared to combustion engines. Hydrogen fuel cells emit only water, addressing critical climate challenges as there are no carbon dioxide emissions. There also are no air pollutants that create smog and cause health problems at the point of operation. Fuel cells are quiet during operation as they have few moving parts.


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[slomobile]

The sole advantage they [hydrogen]have is energy density once they get past a certain size.

I was thinking "where should we put all the excess energy produced by wind and solar? We should probably start building up a reserve."

Ugh. I mathed. Probably screwed it up.
Hydrogen has an advantage by weight, but diesel has more than 3 times the energy in the same volume as liquefied hydrogen.
I'm thinking on the scale of the (US)national petroleum reserves. Capacity for 714 million barrels(113,500,000 m3) of petroleum. In terms of energy that can be stored in that volume.

1,213,800,000,000 kwh for oil
153,225,000 kwh for atmospheric H2
44,435,250,000 kwh at 350 bar
71,505,000,000 kwh at 700 bar
120,877,500,000 kwh liquified at -252.9C
We would need to build at least 17 national reserve size 700 bar facilities for equal energy storage with hydrogen.
Oil is already millions of years old. It doesn't go bad. It even tends to rust proof its tanks. How long would a giant store of 700 bar H2 last in storage? A decade? A year?

Batteries and capacitors self discharge. Steel tanks are slightly permeable to hydrogen. Giant steel tanks are much cheaper than giant batteries.
What is the best non petroleum large scale long term energy storage proposition? Is there anything on par with H2?
Is it possible to store that amount of energy within reach of earth, more than a decade, by any other means?


In case you want to check my math.
A 42 gallon barrel of oil is roughly 1,700 kilowatt hours.
1 kg of H2 can produce around 15 kWh of electricity in a fuel cell
gaseous hydrogen at atmospheric pressure is 0.09 kg/m³
350 bar, gaseous hydrogen is 26,1 kg/m³
700 bar, gaseous hydrogen is 42 kg/m³
In liquid form and at a temperature of -252.9 °C, 71 kg/m³


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_(United_States)
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/oil-barrel-42-gallon-breakdown/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

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