Lightning gets new LFP Batteries starting next year (2024)

[cvalue13]

I think Ford is trying to double down on their short range utility vehicle here. They aren’t shooting for a truck that drives long distances, but one that gets a contractor to a site in town and get stuff done. It’s a pretty sizable market. The advantage here is LFP can charge to 100% every night so LFP vehicles get to use their whole cell every night.

So long as you are within 30-50 miles of home, that means getting to the site, working all day with the truck as power source, then heading home and charging overnight.

Hopefully Ford invests a bit in temperature and battery management before they do this.

love this point

reminds me to raise something that is rarely discussed here: Ford’s e-Transit Cargo Van offerings.

lots of discussion about the Lightning as a consumer product, but easily overlooked is the Lightning for fleet and the range of very affordable BEV transit vans (eg $55K starting).

as for fleet, when I took the very first customer deliveries of a Lightning in January from my dealership, my dealership had already delivered over 30 fleet lightnings.

separately, two months later my neighbor received his e-Transit extended van. He’s a cabinet builder, and uses the vehicle for work transport around town. Charge infra, etc., are largely irrelevant to him.

contrast the use case of the e-Transit to the Tesla Semi in a an interesting use case / target audience distinction

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[Ogre]

reminds me to raise something that is rarely discussed here: Ford’s e-Transit Cargo Van offerings.

lots of discussion about the Lightning as a consumer product, but easily overlooked is the Lightning for fleet and the range of very affordable BEV transit vans (eg $55K starting).

Yep, a lot of tradesmen only rarely leave a 40 mile radius for work.

as for fleet, when I took the very first customer deliveries of a Lightning in January from my dealership, my dealership had already delivered over 30 fleet lightnings.

separately, two months later my neighbor received his e-Transit extended van. He’s a cabinet builder, and uses the vehicle for work transport around town. Charge infra, etc., are largely irrelevant to him.

Yeah, Ford knows their stuff when it comes to fleet sales, it’s something they’ve been doing for a long time. The e-Transit is a great compromise.

Also… this is why in a nutshell Tesla is absolutely going to release the single motor truck (or a dual motor with similar pricing/ range). Fleet sales are a big deal.

 

[Sirfun]

Why’s that?

With a 1000lb of payload left the tongue weight of significant trailers is still available. As much trailer as I’d want to pull with any regularity for any distance in any 1/2 ton truck.

I hope it works out for you. A lot of people don't realize how easy it is to go over payload capacity and not be near towing capacity.

Here's a pretty good video on what can happen. The interesting numbers part is at 6:42 in the video.

 

[cvalue13]

I hope it works out for you. A lot of people don't realize how easy it is to go over payload capacity and not be near towing capacity.

Here's a pretty good video on what can happen. The interesting numbers part is at 6:42 in the video.

won’t work out for me, because I didn’t buy a little 1/2 ton BEV truck to ever pull anything material for any significant distance

I have a decent understanding of the numbers in the video, and I think it’s all consistent with what I’ve said so far. (Though oddly, he ultimately concludes a person requires a 1-ton dually to pull a toy hauler, which isn’t a view shared by many experienced people.)

in short: there’s no problem with the Lightning payload, for a 1/2 ton truck. If someone is expecting to tow material weight for material distances, with a loaded cab and bed, they are the ones who don’t understand the video’s numbers.

CT on the other hand could end up having a degree of payload and towing capacity that is uncommon for a “1/2 ton truck” - but maybe because it’s not a “1/2 ton truck”

Early on Tesla made disclosures that purported the CT would likely qualify as a 'Class 2B-3' medium-duty vehicle, and have a towing capacity between 7,000-14,000 pounds. That means the relevant comparison would be not an F150, but instead an F250 (which is also a 2B-3 and has towing capacity of 15,000lbs). The 2019 towing battle stunt proved only that the CT (proto) weighs a helluvalot more than a 2-wheel drive F150 - consistent with the 2B-3 disclosure. If all of this is the case, then Ford hasn’t yet made a BEV truck that is in the same class as the CT, as the CT would be the first medium-duty BEV truck.

If I were EM, that’s the messaging angle (and capabilities) I’d have been shooting for in order to pull some rug back out from under Rivian, Lightning, etc.

Ultimately we don’t know the actual CT figures. But based on what little we know to date, comparisons of the payload and towing of a CT to an F150 is probably off. It’s sort of analogous to if Ram put out a commercial bellowing about how their 2500 series out tows an F150. (Or the 2019 towing battle stunt). Interesting only to people who don’t understand trucks, maybe.

Similarly, we don’t know the payload of future Lightnings with LFP batteries. Even if the packs weight significantly more (conjecture), Ford need only tweak the suspension accordingly to arrive at a still marketable payload for their commercials and the 1/2 ton class of pickups.

So mark me down for predicting the CT is launched as “the world’s first medium duty BEV truck!” That would be cool

 

[fhteagle]

You can't charge any lithium ion batteries below their freezing point.

I did look further into this, and forgot to come back here and report what I found.

So a very common liquid electrolyte in batteries of various chemistries is LiPF6 . There are others, somewhat similar in chemistry, and can also be modified with additives so the figures I am about to quote are illustrative, not absolutes. True freeze point of these liquid electrolytes I found to be in the range of -40 to -30C or so. But the problem is ion motility falls off way above this temperature, in the range of -5 to +5C. The fall off is especially early and sharp for LFP compared to NCM/NCA, LTO, or even LMFP chemistries.

So, I still think LFP might be a more problematic in deeply cold climates, take more user thought and preparation, possibly more energy total to keep them warm enough to even L2 charge. Not saying we can't/shouldn't use LFP batteries for vehicles, just that it might be smart to focus their deployment in tropic and near tropic type climates.

 

[Crissa]

A heating blanket works just fine, however, at bringing the batteries back up to temperature.

It's an overblown problem.

-Crissa

 

[bad61]

Saw this announcement at Lightning forum...

Official: $3.5B Ford LFP Battery Plant Coming to Michigan. Lightning Receives LFP Batteries Starting 2024

https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...6b-ford-lfp-battery-plant-coming-to-michigan/

Don't LFP batteries work better for V2H. Maybe that is a selling point for Ford. Lots of people on here talk about how the Cybertruck has to have a frunk comparable to the Lightning (not me). But, having the ability to back up your home energy is HUGE. I think Tesla will have dropped the ball if the Cybertruck doesn't have that capability!

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