Not a good look for Tesla: diversion team tactics to deal with range complaints

[Cyberostachu]

The

I think Jhodgesatmb answers his own question right there.

What is Tesla supposed to do? If the window sensors are operating in the correct (and safe) manner, there still will be some failure rate. Might be a one in a million fluke, and there's logs.

I'm not sure what they're supposed to do here, if they can't find the error in the logs or replicate the issue.

What this really is, is a failure of how Tesla (and pretty much all manufacturers today) don't reveal these logs except under legal duress. And they don't reveal their formula for things like battery capacity, either.


Yes, and they can tell what speed you've been driving at, what the weather conditions are, how you pressed the accelerator, and what the battery voltages are.

They can tell if you're just a lead foot or not.

Are they supposed to tell you that you're a lead foot to your face? Sounds like a position I wouldn't want to put my employees in.

-Crissa

They pointed out I was using 290 to 350 wpm but where I live it's up and down so I couldn't maIntain an ideal 200 to 220 wpm. In a way I had a "Uranium foot" in my first visit but I eased up later but did make much difference. I told them, "You bragged your car can run 135 mph and can acceleration 0 to 60 mph in 4.2 seconds but you are telling me to drive 65 in a 75 mph zone and accelerate 9 sec on the first 60 mph? If you advertised like that, I would not have been crazy to replace my BMW for this." They had no solution. I admit I like fast cars but can not accept 220 miles on a 330-mile rated car. Enough complaining but I hope more people realized that it could happen to them too. ? ?

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[PilotPete]

They said it's my driving habit on my first visit with the service managers. On my 2nd, 3rd and 4th visits, I adjusted my driving habit. Still the same result. I told them if I bought the car because it goes 4.2 seconds to 60 mph, why would I drive it 9 sec to 60 mph? Also, if it's rated 135 mph, why would I drive 65 mph max in a highway with 75 mph speed limit?

My current (gas) car is EPA rated at 28mpg highway. It also is advertised to have a 4 sec 0-60mph. The two aren’t compatible. If I do 20 1/4 mile runs, I guarantee you I won’t see anywhere near 28mpg (in fact I don’t see it in a tank of gas anyway) My car will do somewhere north of 170mph, but not at 28mpg. My gas mileage is different between 65 and 85mph, and it don’t get better as you go faster. If I take my car to a track, I get somewhere around half the rated mileage.

To draw that closer to the Tesla display, I have a “Range until empty” display. When I fill it up, I see a number, and for an example, let’s say it 380. If I drive immediately on the freeway, tuck in behind a semi, and do 70, I can drive 30 miles (so I should have 350 miles left) and the display says 400miles. Conversely, After I fill up, I can drive errands around town, punch it a few times, drive 30 miles (and it should say 350) and it will say 280.

We accept these differences in an ICE car, we understand that how we drive affects our gas mileage, and therefore our range. But for some reason we expect a BEV to be different? How hard you accelerate is going to affect your range/Wpm. How fast you drive (physics doesn’t care about what the posted speed limit might be.) is going to affect your Wpm. How the wind blows, what vehicle are you following and at what distance is going to affect your Wpm. going uphill and downhill is going to affect you Wpm. And all of that by default is going to affect range. If I rent a Tesla and drive to Vegas doing my normal speed, I don’t expect to get quoted range. In my car, I don’t expect to get rated mpg on that drive either!

My wife’s plug-in hybrid says it has 9 miles of of juice in the battery, and 15 miles from home I select “Electric Only”. I shouldn’t make it home. But it’s overall and almost completely downhill, so I can get there on 9 miles of juice.

But people are indoctrinated by the old guard ICE builders and we’ve bought into the whole range anxiety thing.

 

[JBee]

For every action there's an opposite reaction?

If you do more work, you need more energy to power it?

Where did the latest version of common sense go? Is ChatGPT really making us all too lazy to think for a second? Sheesh.

The most efficient way to drive any vehicle is to use the pedals the least amount possible.

 

[Zapharus]

Telemetry would detect if someone needed to turn the wheel more in one direction than another.

And to get the full range, you have to drive past 0 to shutdown. Clearly, you don't want to do that, because you could get stranded. But that's what EPA range means.

-Crissa

This is an excellent point, Crissa. I tend to have “honest talks” with friends who ask me about my Model 3 and I often say that the advertised range is not realistic because no one wants to drive at the exact speed limit, without the A/C on, music off, not charging one’s phone, avoiding hills/inclines and such, pretty much all the extra things that may deplete the battery, even if just a little. But in all those I often neglect the fact that no one is willing to drive their EV until it shuts off to really test the range.

 

[Cyberostachu]

My current (gas) car is EPA rated at 28mpg highway. It also is advertised to have a 4 sec 0-60mph. The two aren’t compatible. If I do 20 1/4 mile runs, I guarantee you I won’t see anywhere near 28mpg (in fact I don’t see it in a tank of gas anyway) My car will do somewhere north of 170mph, but not at 28mpg. My gas mileage is different between 65 and 85mph, and it don’t get better as you go faster. If I take my car to a track, I get somewhere around half the rated mileage.

To draw that closer to the Tesla display, I have a “Range until empty” display. When I fill it up, I see a number, and for an example, let’s say it 380. If I drive immediately on the freeway, tuck in behind a semi, and do 70, I can drive 30 miles (so I should have 350 miles left) and the display says 400miles. Conversely, After I fill up, I can drive errands around town, punch it a few times, drive 30 miles (and it should say 350) and it will say 280.

We accept these differences in an ICE car, we understand that how we drive affects our gas mileage, and therefore our range. But for some reason we expect a BEV to be different? How hard you accelerate is going to affect your range/Wpm. How fast you drive (physics doesn’t care about what the posted speed limit might be.) is going to affect your Wpm. How the wind blows, what vehicle are you following and at what distance is going to affect your Wpm. going uphill and downhill is going to affect you Wpm. And all of that by default is going to affect range. If I rent a Tesla and drive to Vegas doing my normal speed, I don’t expect to get quoted range. In my car, I don’t expect to get rated mpg on that drive either!

My wife’s plug-in hybrid says it has 9 miles of of juice in the battery, and 15 miles from home I select “Electric Only”. I shouldn’t make it home. But it’s overall and almost completely downhill, so I can get there on 9 miles of juice.

But people are indoctrinated by the old guard ICE builders and we’ve bought into the whole range anxiety thing.

This is an excellent point, Crissa. I tend to have “honest talks” with friends who ask me about my Model 3 and I often say that the advertised range is not realistic because no one wants to drive at the exact speed limit, without the A/C on, music off, not charging one’s phone, avoiding hills/inclines and such, pretty much all the extra things that may deplete the battery, even if just a little. But in all those I often neglect the fact that no one is willing to drive their EV until it shuts off to really test the range.

Very logical reply in my humble opinion.

 

[Cyberostachu]

My current (gas) car is EPA rated at 28mpg highway. It also is advertised to have a 4 sec 0-60mph. The two aren’t compatible. If I do 20 1/4 mile runs, I guarantee you I won’t see anywhere near 28mpg (in fact I don’t see it in a tank of gas anyway) My car will do somewhere north of 170mph, but not at 28mpg. My gas mileage is different between 65 and 85mph, and it don’t get better as you go faster. If I take my car to a track, I get somewhere around half the rated mileage.

To draw that closer to the Tesla display, I have a “Range until empty” display. When I fill it up, I see a number, and for an example, let’s say it 380. If I drive immediately on the freeway, tuck in behind a semi, and do 70, I can drive 30 miles (so I should have 350 miles left) and the display says 400miles. Conversely, After I fill up, I can drive errands around town, punch it a few times, drive 30 miles (and it should say 350) and it will say 280.

We accept these differences in an ICE car, we understand that how we drive affects our gas mileage, and therefore our range. But for some reason we expect a BEV to be different? How hard you accelerate is going to affect your range/Wpm. How fast you drive (physics doesn’t care about what the posted speed limit might be.) is going to affect your Wpm. How the wind blows, what vehicle are you following and at what distance is going to affect your Wpm. going uphill and downhill is going to affect you Wpm. And all of that by default is going to affect range. If I rent a Tesla and drive to Vegas doing my normal speed, I don’t expect to get quoted range. In my car, I don’t expect to get rated mpg on that drive either!

My wife’s plug-in hybrid says it has 9 miles of of juice in the battery, and 15 miles from home I select “Electric Only”. I shouldn’t make it home. But it’s overall and almost completely downhill, so I can get there on 9 miles of juice.

But people are indoctrinated by the old guard ICE builders and we’ve bought into the whole range anxiety thing.

With all due respect,
constructive advice only, how should I drive to get close to 90% of 330 miles? I tried everything including advices from janitors to managers, the best I could do is 65% of 330 miles. I wish the service department took my offer of $1,000 if they could drive with me to get close to 330 fully charged. Conditions:
1. No driving under 70 on 75 mph interstate.
2. Follow driving all speed limits below 75 mph.
3. If it's over 100 deg F, we should at least use optimum temp that we won't pass out from heat.
4. If it's under 45, we should at least set it at 45 deg to avoid pneumonia.
Hope I will learn from this discussion.

 

[CyberGus]

With all due respect,
constructive advice only, how should I drive to get close to 90% of 330 miles? I tried everything including advices from janitors to managers, the best I could do is 65% of 330 miles. I wish the service department took my offer of $1,000 if they could drive with me to get close to 330 fully charged. Conditions:
1. No driving under 70 on 75 mph interstate.
2. Follow driving all speed limits below 75 mph.
3. If it's over 100 deg F, we should at least use optimum temp that we won't pass out from heat.
4. If it's under 45, we should at least set it at 45 deg to avoid pneumonia.
Hope I will learn from this discussion.

Range drops 20% from 55MPH to 70MPH. You will never hit the EPA range at those speeds.

 

[Crissa]

With all due respect,
constructive advice only, how should I drive to get close to 90% of 330 miles? I tried everything including advices from janitors to managers, the best I could do is 65% of 330 miles. I wish the service department took my offer of $1,000 if they could drive with me to get close to 330 fully charged. Conditions:
1. No driving under 70 on 75 mph interstate.
2. Follow driving all speed limits below 75 mph.
3. If it's over 100 deg F, we should at least use optimum temp that we won't pass out from heat.
4. If it's under 45, we should at least set it at 45 deg to avoid pneumonia.
Hope I will learn from this discussion.

Gotta take it up with the EPA, then. Or maybe your congress person. Because those are the rules the EPA set.

It's kinda weird that Tesla is being dinged for this, and not other companies, when other EVs all do worse in inclement weather than Teslas.

-Crissa

 

[Cyberostachu]

Range drops 20% from 55MPH to 70MPH. You will never hit the EPA range at those speeds.

I hope I've not been misunderstood. I didn't target EPA range. So you're saying I cannot achieve 260 mi as I'm driving 80 mph?
mph? Wow, I wish I were told by the managers at Tesla 2 yrs ago. It's nuts to think that getting 80% efficiency, you have to crawl in the highway. Thank you Gus for your kind advice.

 

[Cyberostachu]

Gotta take it up with the EPA, then. Or maybe your congress person. Because those are the rules the EPA set.

It's kinda weird that Tesla is being dinged for this, and not other companies, when other EVs all do worse in inclement weather than Teslas.

-Crissa

If it's the rule, so be it. Just fair if everyone gets it like that. So different from my BMW ice which was rated 17 city, 26 highway. After 13 years of driving that car my average was 24 mpg, no baby style driving. So, I thought I would only lose 40 to 50 miles by baby style driving. Now, so be it. It's clear now that my style of driving can only get me from 330 to 220 miles. Thank you very much everyone for the information although it felt sour. ? ? ? This ends my topic and no more talking about this.

 

[Crissa]

If it's the rule, so be it. Just fair if everyone gets it like that. So different from my BMW ice which was rated 17 city, 26 highway. After 13 years of driving that car my average was 24 mpg, no baby style driving. So, I thought I would only lose 40 to 50 miles by baby style driving. Now, so be it. It's clear now that my style of driving can only get me from 330 to 220 miles. Thank you very much everyone for the information although it felt sour. ? ? ? This ends my topic and no more talking about this.

That's because ICE cars waste most of their energy while not driving highway miles. So that you went faster didn't matter as much.

But the Tesla is 6x more energy efficient than that BMW. And contains the energy equivalent of two and a quarter gallons gas.

So you're just gonna see it more.

-Crissa

 

[PilotPete]

With all due respect,
constructive advice only, how should I drive to get close to 90% of 330 miles? I tried everything including advices from janitors to managers, the best I could do is 65% of 330 miles. I wish the service department took my offer of $1,000 if they could drive with me to get close to 330 fully charged. Conditions:
1. No driving under 70 on 75 mph interstate.
2. Follow driving all speed limits below 75 mph.
3. If it's over 100 deg F, we should at least use optimum temp that we won't pass out from heat.
4. If it's under 45, we should at least set it at 45 deg to avoid pneumonia.
Hope I will learn from this discussion.

I’ve rented some MYs that got lousy range per charge, and those that came close to projected range. I think you’ve got one of the former and not the later. All I was addressing was your comments about the car could do 0-60 in X and why shouldn’t you do 80 in a 75 zone and not make specified mileage.

I’d never tell anyone what to do, but I’ve found personally that just a quick letter from an attorney that specializes in the “lemon-law” act gets things fixed real quickly. Just a personal account of past events.

As for your 90% assumptions.

1. Do the speed limit, just know that range is gonna take a small hit. It shouldn’t be that big.
2. Ok
3. Turn it down to 68 if you want, just know that range is…
4. Make it 68 again, just know…

Have I told you about my attorney story???

 

[Cyberostachu]

I’ve rented some MYs that got lousy range per charge, and those that came close to projected range. I think you’ve got one of the former and not the later. All I was addressing was your comments about the car could do 0-60 in X and why shouldn’t you do 80 in a 75 zone and not make specified mileage.

I’d never tell anyone what to do, but I’ve found personally that just a quick letter from an attorney that specializes in the “lemon-law” act gets things fixed real quickly. Just a personal account of past events.

As for your 90% assumptions.

1. Do the speed limit, just know that range is gonna take a small hit. It shouldn’t be that big.
2. Ok
3. Turn it down to 68 if you want, just know that range is…
4. Make it 68 again, just know…

Have I told you about my attorney story???

 

[Cyberostachu]

I promised that I was not gonna reply to this topic anymore but I owe you a decent reply as I sounded so frustrated on my last text. There are things I'd like to clarify with you and the few gentlemen who tried to help me.
1. When I mentioned the car accelerates very fast like 4.2 sec 0 to 60 mph and it can run very fast like 135 mph, what I meant was a waste of ability to speed because driving more than 65 mph, takes a big hit of it's battery power or potential energy. I'm comparing it to bragging in golf. "Drive for show, putt for dough." Useless statistics. I know it has nothing to do with saving energy if you speed up. It's losing of too much energy when you speed up to the normal 75 mph limit, is disproportionate to how normal travel expectations which was going on for decades in my opinion. I thought sudden speeding sacrifices range but not so much unless done 99% of the time. I didn't mean to expect too much. I just didn't want to be penalized that much.
2. I have read in this forum that some guys realized 240+ miles range in their Standard Variant and some realized 300 or + in their LR variant like mine, if they are telling the truth, which I assume they are, why am I struggling to get 240 miles let's say 100% to 0% charge? If my problem is my foot, once my car gets going, I use cruise control and Autopilot 90% of the time regardless if I'm in my quiet neighborhood or in the highway.
3. You mentioned that you rented some Model Y that got close to the published range but some are far off. Maybe there's a chance that this car is unique because my background is science and I understood your (plural) explanations and it's so hard to accept Standard Variant has a better range whether taken by % or by the absolute number than the LR. Another factor is the terrain. For terrain, it follows the rule, "What goes up must come down." So if you are climbing up, you cannot go on to heaven. At some point, you go down to earth. Also, whatever ups and downs you drove out, is canceled by the ups and downs driving back home. So, it averaged out.
4. I hate to ask you who's your lawyer because I already inquired here in my town and that office is scared of big Tesla. If you have a lawyer or if you're the lawyer, please help me.
5. I mentioned I've been sacrificing to 72 deg F when it's hot and down to 66 when it's cold.
6. Other than the top items, I am very hard to be convinced that I should only be getting my mileage (range) and be quiet. There has to be something else. Does my car use all of its battery power or just 75% of its 72 kwh in its pack? Even 100% usage cannot justify IMHO.
Thank you all.

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