Transition to Clean Transport - Tesla leads while Toyota lags by nearly every measure

[firsttruck]

Toyota spends more in advertising its ICE vehicles than it does investing in BEVs (ZEV investment).

In 2021, Toyota Motor Corporation invested 1.7 billion U.S. dollars in advertising activities across the globe. Roughly a quarter of the figure was invested in digital advertising. Toyota belong to the largest advertisers worldwide that year.
6 ene 2023
https://www.statista.com

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New report from the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) rates how effectively the world’s 20 largest auto manufacturers are transitioning to zero-tailpipe-emission vehicles.
New Global Automaker Rating identifies leaders and laggards in the transition to electric vehicles

THE GLOBAL AUTOMAKER RATING 2022 Who is leading the transition to electric vehicles?
By Chang Shen, Ilma Fadhil, Zifei Yang, and Stephanie Searle
ICCT ( The International Council on Clean Transportation) is an independent, nonprofit organization that provides first-rate, unbiased research and policy analysis on clean transportation to government officials and other relevant stakeholders from civil society and industry.
https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Global-Automaker-Rating-2022_final.pdf

While Tesla and BYD lead the pack, Volkswagen is making strong plans and rapid progress toward decarbonizing its light-duty fleet, and Toyota lags by nearly every measure.

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ICCT’s rating also showed that of the 20 largest manufacturers globally by sales, six automakers are lagging behind their competitors. Of those, five are headquartered in Japan.

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Of the major automakers Toyota ranked third last with a ZEV investment of around $250 per vehicle. For Toyota much of this investment is possibly going into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, a technology that many experts believe will become redundant in the automotive space.

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Tesla and BYD lead world on EVs by country mile, as Japan car makers drag the chain
May 31, 2023
By Daniel Bleakley
https://thedriven.io/2023/05/31/tes...ntry-mile-as-japan-car-makers-drag-the-chain/

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Auto industry spent less on advertising in 2022; Tesla already spends $0 Credit: Tesla
Posted on September 18, 2022
By Johnna Crider
https://www.teslarati.com/auto-industry-advertising-tesla-0/

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According to a study by StockApps.com, Tesla recorded the highest R&D spend per car sold at $2,984 as of March 2022. Notably, the Stock Apps study backed up data published in October 2021 by Visual Capitalist which shared an R&D spending comparison between Tesla, Ford, Toyota, General Motors, and Chrysler.

Graph credit: Visual Capitalist

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Comparing Tesla’s Spending on R&D and Marketing Per Car to Other Automakers
Published October 11, 2021
By Aran Ali
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/co...rd-and-marketing-per-car-to-other-automakers/

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[intimidator]

15 years from now if Toyota is on the scrap heap,

a) obviously it will be their own fault,
b) it will be an interesting Business School case study on how to take a large corporation...straight into the trees on the side of a mountain,
c) open up sales opportunites for those companies wanting to expand their EV lineups.

The pie known as Annual Auto Sales is a fixed amount. All those companies listed above have a slice of that pie. So as Toyota loses sales, other companies will get a bigger slice, and Toyota's will shrink. Toyota not diving into EVs won't slow the transition to EVs. It just means other players grab a bigger market share of the pie. For example, believe it or not, it might mean someone like VW will GROW in size as it fills the void left by Toyota.

 

[jlatino]

Toyota spends more in advertising its ICE vehicles than it does investing in BEVs (ZEV investment).

In 2021, Toyota Motor Corporation invested 1.7 billion U.S. dollars in advertising activities across the globe. Roughly a quarter of the figure was invested in digital advertising. Toyota belong to the largest advertisers worldwide that year.
6 ene 2023
https://www.statista.com

------------------------------------------

New report from the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) rates how effectively the world’s 20 largest auto manufacturers are transitioning to zero-tailpipe-emission vehicles.
New Global Automaker Rating identifies leaders and laggards in the transition to electric vehicles

THE GLOBAL AUTOMAKER RATING 2022 Who is leading the transition to electric vehicles?
By Chang Shen, Ilma Fadhil, Zifei Yang, and Stephanie Searle
ICCT ( The International Council on Clean Transportation) is an independent, nonprofit organization that provides first-rate, unbiased research and policy analysis on clean transportation to government officials and other relevant stakeholders from civil society and industry.
https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/The-Global-Automaker-Rating-2022_final.pdf

While Tesla and BYD lead the pack, Volkswagen is making strong plans and rapid progress toward decarbonizing its light-duty fleet, and Toyota lags by nearly every measure.

.....
ICCT’s rating also showed that of the 20 largest manufacturers globally by sales, six automakers are lagging behind their competitors. Of those, five are headquartered in Japan.

.....




.....
Of the major automakers Toyota ranked third last with a ZEV investment of around $250 per vehicle. For Toyota much of this investment is possibly going into hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, a technology that many experts believe will become redundant in the automotive space.

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Tesla and BYD lead world on EVs by country mile, as Japan car makers drag the chain
May 31, 2023
By Daniel Bleakley
https://thedriven.io/2023/05/31/tes...ntry-mile-as-japan-car-makers-drag-the-chain/

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Auto industry spent less on advertising in 2022; Tesla already spends $0 Credit: Tesla
Posted on September 18, 2022
By Johnna Crider
https://www.teslarati.com/auto-industry-advertising-tesla-0/

.....
According to a study by StockApps.com, Tesla recorded the highest R&D spend per car sold at $2,984 as of March 2022. Notably, the Stock Apps study backed up data published in October 2021 by Visual Capitalist which shared an R&D spending comparison between Tesla, Ford, Toyota, General Motors, and Chrysler.

Graph credit: Visual Capitalist

------------------------------------------

Comparing Tesla’s Spending on R&D and Marketing Per Car to Other Automakers
Published October 11, 2021
By Aran Ali
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/co...rd-and-marketing-per-car-to-other-automakers/

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Toyota has not been lagging. They've been looking forward similar to Netflix versus Blockbuster.

https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-hydrogen-combustion-engine-has-the-potential-to-make-evs-obsolete/

 

[firsttruck]

Toyota has not been lagging. They've been looking forward similar to Netflix versus Blockbuster.

https://www.topspeed.com/toyotas-hydrogen-combustion-engine-has-the-potential-to-make-evs-obsolete/

LoL

OK, but in that comparison, Toyota is Blockbuster (Nokia, Xerox, Kodak, buggy whip maker, etc).

 

[Easyejl]

The thing is, tesla does more damage to the environment as of now than toyota. The metric here is "zero-tailpipe-emission vehicles", which ignores the extended carbon cost for mining + processing materials for batteries, specialized tires, etc. a camry hybrid has less carbon cost than a model 3 up until something in the 150,000 mile range from the last data I saw. I think toyota is doing us all a bigger favor by not launching all in to higher priced and higher (initially at production time) environmentally damaging cars.

Realistically, hydrogen fuel cell based is way better than BEV in terms of initial cost and initial carbon footprint. But it seems that hope is dead as BEVs is what's exciting.

Disclaimer - I drive an audi Q4 e-tron BEV, and am itching for my cybertruck. Just calling them clean vehicles is a stretch given what it takes to manufacture them initially, and how little damage in an accident ends up with totaling the car.

 

[HaulingAss]

The thing is, tesla does more damage to the environment as of now than toyota. The metric here is "zero-tailpipe-emission vehicles", which ignores the extended carbon cost for mining + processing materials for batteries, specialized tires, etc. a camry hybrid has less carbon cost than a model 3 up until something in the 150,000 mile range from the last data I saw. I think toyota is doing us all a bigger favor by not launching all in to higher priced and higher (initially at production time) environmentally damaging cars.

Realistically, hydrogen fuel cell based is way better than BEV in terms of initial cost and initial carbon footprint. But it seems that hope is dead as BEVs is what's exciting.

Disclaimer - I drive an audi Q4 e-tron BEV, and am itching for my cybertruck. Just calling them clean vehicles is a stretch given what it takes to manufacture them initially, and how little damage in an accident ends up with totaling the car.

It's false that Tesla does more environmental damage than Toyota. It's not even close! And hydrogen fuel cell is even worse than ICE! The data is already in, no need to spread false narritives here on an EV enthusiast site.

All cars pollute, both in manufacture and operation but going all electric is a dramatic improvement over the old way of doing things. The impacts of ICE vehicles are wide and deep compared to EV's, this is well established by solid science. It's only oil and legacy auto interests, like car dealerships, gas stations, refiners, transport companies, drilling companies, auto parts suppliers, quick lube chains, and other interests who are threatened economically by electrification who try to keep these false narritives alive.

 

[Easyejl]

It's false that Tesla does more environmental damage than Toyota. It's not even close! And hydrogen fuel cell is even worse than ICE! The data is already in, no need to spread false narritives here on an EV enthusiast site.

All cars pollute, both in manufacture and operation but going all electric is a dramatic improvement over the old way of doing things. The impacts of ICE vehicles are wide and deep compared to EV's, this is well established by solid science. It's only oil and legacy auto interests, like car dealerships, gas stations, refiners, transport companies, drilling companies, auto parts suppliers, quick lube chains, and other interests who are threatened economically by electrification who try to keep these false narritives alive.

It's not false. At 0 miles on the odometer of each, the tesla has done more environmental damage than the camry. There is no question whatsoever about that. It takes X amounts of miles driven for the tesla to pass it, what exactly that X is certainly is debatable and depends on a lot of factors. But at time of delivery, the tesla is significantly worse.

 

[HaulingAss]

It's not false. At 0 miles on the odometer of each, the tesla has done more environmental damage than the camry. There is no question whatsoever about that. It takes X amounts of miles driven for the tesla to pass it, what exactly that X is certainly is debatable and depends on a lot of factors. But at time of delivery, the tesla is significantly worse.

I didn't take issue with the fact that electric vehicles have a higher environmental impact to build. But vehicles are only built to be used so it is necessary to consider the TOTAL environmental impact, otherwise you have a meaningless statistic.

This should be obvious to anyone looking at the problem in a sincere manner.

However, looking just at the manufacturing impact, Toyota builds more cars and has a much larger environmental impact than Tesla. So, no matter which way you look at it, your original statement is false. Tesla does NOT do more environmental damage than Toyota. Not even close.

Why can't you just admit what you said was false, even when interpreted solely from a manufacturing perspective?

 

[Easyejl]

I didn't take issue with the fact that electric vehicles have a higher environmental impact to build. But vehicles are only built to be used so it is necessary to consider the TOTAL environmental impact, otherwise you have a meaningless statistic.

This should be obvious to anyone looking at the problem in a sincere manner.

Absolutely true, but if that X i mentioned is 150,000 miles it could be 15+ years to break even cleanness wise. If you look at it that way, it's likely that only a tiny fraction of teslas have broken even. That's a large part of my concern, that particularly with the longer ranges becoming the norm that it makes that inital cleanness hit even worse. My audi comes with about the same size battery pack as the tesla model 3 base if I recall, 89kwh, and of course plenty of models come with significantly larger, like the hummer . I'd be way happier with a faster charging battery that was only 60kwh as that would still give me around 180 miles range which is plenty if recharging from 1% to 80% was a <5 minute experience.

Of course, if break even cleanness is at 30,000 miles its different. But it's very hard to get a good idea of what that mileage should be as both sides spout their own propaganda. Either way i'm driving a BEV now, and the next one will be too.

 

[HaulingAss]

Absolutely true, but if that X i mentioned is 150,000 miles it could be 15+ years to break even cleanness wise. If you look at it that way, it's likely that only a tiny fraction of teslas have broken even. That's a large part of my concern, that particularly with the longer ranges becoming the norm that it makes that inital cleanness hit even worse. My audi comes with about the same size battery pack as the tesla model 3 base if I recall, 89kwh, and of course plenty of models come with significantly larger, like the hummer . I'd be way happier with a faster charging battery that was only 60kwh as that would still give me around 180 miles range which is plenty if recharging from 1% to 80% was a <5 minute experience.

Of course, if break even cleanness is at 30,000 miles its different. But it's very hard to get a good idea of what that mileage should be as both sides spout their own propaganda. Either way i'm driving a BEV now, and the next one will be too.

Propoganda is just propoganda and it's not too difficult to spot because the carbon footprints of EV's vs. ICE has been studied extensively by people without a horse in the race and the results are very similar, given similar assumptions. ICE cannot even come close to competing with pure electric cars in terms of environmental impact. The payback period is very short, and the more you drive, the quicker the payback.

This shouldn't even be a serious question from anyone without an agenda. Why can't you just admit that your original statement was just plain wrong, no matter how you look at it?

 

[rudedawg78]

Here is an easy chart that people can look at that shows how much cleaner ICE vehicles are versus EVs, throughout the lifecycle:


Cited source: IEA, Comparative life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions of a mid-size BEV and ICE vehicle, IEA, Paris https://www.iea.org/data-and-statis...s-emissions-of-a-mid-size-bev-and-ice-vehicle, IEA. Licence: CC BY 4.0

 

[firsttruck]

It's not false. At 0 miles on the odometer of each, the tesla has done more environmental damage than the camry. There is no question whatsoever about that. It takes X amounts of miles driven for the tesla to pass it, what exactly that X is certainly is debatable and depends on a lot of factors. But at time of delivery, the tesla is significantly worse.

So what!! Nobody except a few car collectors keep a vehicle at 0 miles.

ICE cars have a design life of 120,000 - 150,00 miles for which every mile or hour engine running consumes environmentally damaging to get (drill & transport) fossil fuel and expels environmentally damaging exhausts.

Teslas will be less damaging on average by 22K miles ( 1.5-2 years of operation) and the electricity can come from hydro, solar, wind, geo-thermal, nuclear plants, and in the future just the humidity in the air.

In addition Teslas because of the few moving parts, simplicity and reliability, will have probably more than twice the design life of ICE so EV will strech the resouces used to make the EV even further.

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Lifecycle Emissions of Electric Cars vs. Gasoline
Posted by Kelly Shin
January 05, 2023
https://blog.greenenergyconsumers.org/blog/lifecycle-emissions-of-electric-cars-vs.-gasoline

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Break-Even Point in Emissions
Another way to look at total emissions is by the “break-even point.” In this case, a break-even point is when an electric vehicle makes up for the emissions produced during its manufacturing stage in its consumption stage. Essentially, how long or how much does an electric vehicle need to be driven to match the ‘emissions debt’ it produced in its manufacturing stage? According to the graph below, an electric car and electric truck would need to drive 21,300 miles and 17,500 miles respectively to reach the break-even points with their gas counterparts. Considering most vehicles are driven 200,000 miles in their lifetime, that means the break-even point arrives after 1.5-2 years of driving. But again, this is predicated on the national average of vehicles TODAY.

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Union of Concerned Scientists | How Electric Cars and Pick-Ups Beat Gasoline on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions
By David Reichmuth, Jessica Dunn, Don Anair
Published Jul 25, 2022
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/driving-cleaner#read-online-content

This is a condensed, online version of the report. For all figures, references, and the full text, please download the full report PDF
https://www.ucsusa.org/media/12598

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This New Device Generates Electricity From Thin Air Nearly any material covered with tiny holes can derive energy from humidity, per a new study, opening doors to more sustainable power
By Will Sullivan
May 31, 2023
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...enerates-electricity-from-thin-air-180982263/

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[HaulingAss]

So what!! Nobody except a few car collectors keep a vehicle at 0 miles.

ICE cars have a design life of 120,000 - 150,00 miles for which every mile or hour engine running consumes environmentally damaging to get (drill & transport) fossil fuel and expels environmentally damaging exhausts.

Teslas will be less damaging on average by 22K miles ( 1.5-2 years of operation) and the electricity can come from hydro, solar, wind, geo-thermal, nuclear plants, and in the future just the humidity in the air.

In addition Teslas because of the few moving parts, simplicity and reliability, will have probably more than twice the design life of ICE so EV will strech the resouces used to make the EV even further.

----------------------------------

Lifecycle Emissions of Electric Cars vs. Gasoline
Posted by Kelly Shin
January 05, 2023
https://blog.greenenergyconsumers.org/blog/lifecycle-emissions-of-electric-cars-vs.-gasoline

.....
Break-Even Point in Emissions
Another way to look at total emissions is by the “break-even point.” In this case, a break-even point is when an electric vehicle makes up for the emissions produced during its manufacturing stage in its consumption stage. Essentially, how long or how much does an electric vehicle need to be driven to match the ‘emissions debt’ it produced in its manufacturing stage? According to the graph below, an electric car and electric truck would need to drive 21,300 miles and 17,500 miles respectively to reach the break-even points with their gas counterparts. Considering most vehicles are driven 200,000 miles in their lifetime, that means the break-even point arrives after 1.5-2 years of driving. But again, this is predicated on the national average of vehicles TODAY.

----------------------------------

Union of Concerned Scientists | How Electric Cars and Pick-Ups Beat Gasoline on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions
By David Reichmuth, Jessica Dunn, Don Anair
Published Jul 25, 2022
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/driving-cleaner#read-online-content

This is a condensed, online version of the report. For all figures, references, and the full text, please download the full report PDF
https://www.ucsusa.org/media/12598

----------------------------------

This New Device Generates Electricity From Thin Air Nearly any material covered with tiny holes can derive energy from humidity, per a new study, opening doors to more sustainable power
By Will Sullivan
May 31, 2023
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...enerates-electricity-from-thin-air-180982263/

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Why do you want to use real facts to prove that pure electric cars are cleaner than internal combustion cars? Wouldn't it be more convincing to just use innuendo and "I heard it on the Internet" to make your case?

 

[Flaskman]

Tesla is a great company. Toyota is a great company.

 

[firsttruck]

Tesla is a great company. Toyota is a great company.

Toyota was a great company.
Toyota is actively trying to slow the transition means it is NOT NOW a great company.

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