Upgradable battery packs

[Tinker71]

From Sandys tear down we learned that the CT battery pack can be removed and replaced fairly quickly by knowledgeable and equipped team. I think many of us expected a permanently mounted battery pack with adhesives. Were they concerned with warranty cost from failed packs or did they have something else in mind?

I wonder how far the right right to repair laws would go in allowing a 3rd party to develop an upgraded battery back that could bolt to the CT? So using a 30% improvement from 123 kWhr that would be 160 kWhr with a 30% improvement in range and likely better charging characteristics. (say this happens in 4 years) so 160 x $200 per kWhr at the pack level would be $32,000. The existing pack may still be worth 123 x $100 as stationary storage. So a net cost of $23,700. HMMM IDK if this is worth it. I guess it depends if the CT is still listing for 80-100K and what other improvements have come along. I always thought the SS body would make for great legacy vehicle worth upgrading over time.

From a TSLA business plan, what if they made the pack upgradable so Tesla could upgrade the battery pack and profit from it? Profit from the new pack and for the stationary storage. What if they have a plug and play 800V charger and BMS interface to facilitate the use of the pack for stationary storage? This could be singles house battery back up or gang configurations of say 4 CT packs stacked.

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[FutureTruck]

Built that way for ease of manufacturing and replacement.

 

[Outdoors]

Tesla would much rather sell one a new truck or a new powerwall. Right to repair isn't a question. Go right ahead. Void one's warranty and enjoy.

People have been swapping packs of different sizes for years now.

 

[Tinker71]

Tesla would much rather sell one a new truck or a new powerwall. Right to repair isn't a question. Go right ahead. Void one's warranty and enjoy.

People have been swapping packs of different sizes for years now.

I think right to repair makes it harder to void a warranty and no, changing a pack has never been this easy on a Tesla.

When Tesla isn't battery constrained everything will be judged on straight margins. Used CT storage would not necessarily compete with a nicely packaged Powerwall.

 

[Outdoors]

I think right to repair makes it harder to void a warranty and no, changing a pack has never been this easy on a Tesla.

When Tesla isn't battery constrained everything will be judged on straight margins. Used CT storage would not necessarily compete with a nicely packaged Powerwall.

Changing a pack is quite easy. There have been hundreds of third party swaps.

Ok. Let me know when Tesla isn't going to be battery constrained. Nice walk backwards to a place in time that I can't ever see happening.

Third party repair on batteries is not going to happen. Tesla is not going to open up and tell you how to repair a high voltage battery pack. Tesla is not going to certify third parties to potentially do a bad job and have cars catch on fire. Imagine the finger pointing as five cars at a Supercharger catch on fire because tinkerer Bob screwed the pooch on the battery in his garage last night.

Third party repair on suspension parts. Other parts like body going to happen all day long but Tesla again is not going to give you the right to repair something that can kill you and others.

That's like asking the United States government for directions on the nuclear bomb one bought so one can take it apart and tinker with it because one has that right.

 

[Tinker71]

Changing a pack is quite easy. There have been hundreds of third party swaps.

Module repair yes. Full battery swaps no. Tesla does many on warranty but it hasn't made sense for 3rd party on Tesla to my knowledge. I understand there is 3rd party stuff for Nissan Leafs.

Ok. Let me know when Tesla isn't going to be battery constrained. Nice walk backwards to a place in time that I can't ever see happening.

When sales slows and battery capacity remains constant - Instantly - no battery constraint. It will happen overnight. Remember Panasonic, LG and others are able to make 4680 cells.

Third party repair on batteries is not going to happen. Tesla is not going to open up and tell you how to repair a high voltage battery pack. Tesla is not going to certify third parties to potentially do a bad job and have cars catch on fire. Imagine the finger pointing as five cars at a Supercharger catch on fire because tinkerer Bob screwed the pooch on the battery in his garage last night.

I admit I don't know the rules, but I am not talking about dissecting and repairing a pack.
I am talking about a 3rd party reproducing a part that mounts to a bolt pattern, a volume, and a couple wire harness points and a matching voltage. Don't twist my assertions.

That's like asking the United States government for directions on the nuclear bomb one bought so one can take it apart and tinker with it because one has that right.

Well this is pure hyperbole. You should be embarrassed.

 

[Outdoors]

Module repair yes. Full battery swaps no. Tesla does many on warranty but it hasn't made sense for 3rd party on Tesla to my knowledge. I understand there is 3rd party stuff for Nissan Leafs.




When sales slows and battery capacity remains constant - Instantly - no battery constraint. It will happen overnight. Remember Panasonic, LG and others are able to make 4680 cells.



I admit I don't know the rules, but I am not talking about dissecting and repairing a pack.
I am talking about a 3rd party reproducing a part that mounts to a bolt pattern, a volume, and a couple wire harness points and a matching voltage. Don't twist my assertions.



Well this is pure hyperbole. You should be embarrassed.

Let's stick with Tesla. I didn't come here for Nissan.

Well I am not embarrassed. Now we are again walking it back. Sorry not happening unless you break into the gateway and configure your new battery. Tesla isn't going to allow supercharger access unless they certify the car. So do all one's new work and take it to tesla to certify that you did it right. Sounds like a rabbit hole to me.

Which means Tesla will sell the battery and the system.

If one cheats and drops in a 3rd party pack and enables supercharging that is cheating. One needs to have Tesla certify that new pack design. Never going to happen.

A drop in pack sure, but Tesla already does that. Many swaps are done from donor cars into new ones. It has already been proven that module pairing isn't really viable. Thanks for your insight on the way batteries and supply and demand work. I disagree with you on it. Significantly.

You should be embarrassed for saying I should be embarrassed. Go buy a Tesla, and then come back to me on ideas.

Edit add: I really mean that on buying the Tesla. I think many especially with your handle and car you own might think Tesla's are just batteries hooked up to wheels. This isn't my 1963 Case 630 tractor that I could work on if I was 12. This is a computer and has things that can really hurt people.

 

[FutureTruck]

Tesla will be putting larger packs into the Cybertruck soon, likely when the Foundation Series is over. Current pack size is not enough for towing and general work truck use.

 

[Amuma]

From Sandys tear down we learned that the CT battery pack can be removed and replaced fairly quickly by knowledgeable and equipped team. I think many of us expected a permanently mounted battery pack with adhesives. Were they concerned with warranty cost from failed packs or did they have something else in mind?

I wonder how far the right right to repair laws would go in allowing a 3rd party to develop an upgraded battery back that could bolt to the CT? So using a 30% improvement from 123 kWhr that would be 160 kWhr with a 30% improvement in range and likely better charging characteristics. (say this happens in 4 years) so 160 x $200 per kWhr at the pack level would be $32,000. The existing pack may still be worth 123 x $100 as stationary storage. So a net cost of $23,700. HMMM IDK if this is worth it. I guess it depends if the CT is still listing for 80-100K and what other improvements have come along. I always thought the SS body would make for great legacy vehicle worth upgrading over time.

From a TSLA business plan, what if they made the pack upgradable so Tesla could upgrade the battery pack and profit from it? Profit from the new pack and for the stationary storage. What if they have a plug and play 800V charger and BMS interface to facilitate the use of the pack for stationary storage? This could be singles house battery back up or gang configurations of say 4 CT packs stacked.

As the 4680 drastically improves, Tesla will not have to change any architecture.

 

[Tinker71]

As the 4680 drastically improves, Tesla will not have to change any architecture.

Exactly. That is my point. The bolt pattern and space should stay the same for many years.

 

[Outdoors]

Exactly. That is my point. The bolt pattern and space should stay the same for many years.

Yep it's all the bolt pattern and the space. That is all that matters.

 

[Amuma]

Tesla will be putting larger packs into the Cybertruck soon, likely when the Foundation Series is over. Current pack size is not enough for towing and general work truck use.

There will be a 500 mile version but that will be the new premium long range with extra $$$ and no time soon (possibly those who ordered extender) and there will also be a smaller battery pack for cheaper versions, soon. But do not expect a larger battery pack for less $$$.

 

[Tinker71]

Well I am not embarrassed. Now we are again walking it back. Sorry not happening unless you break into the gateway and configure your new battery. Tesla isn't going to allow supercharger access unless they certify the car. So do all one's new work and take it to tesla to certify that you did it right. Sounds like a rabbit hole to me.

Which means Tesla will sell the battery and the system.

If one cheats and drops in a 3rd party pack and enables supercharging that is cheating. One needs to have Tesla certify that new pack design. Never going to happen.

A drop in pack sure, but Tesla already does that. Many swaps are done from donor cars into new ones. It has already been proven that module pairing isn't really viable. Thanks for your insight on the way batteries and supply and demand work. I disagree with you on it. Significantly.

Again you are misdirecting the discussion. The right to repair requires some interpretation which is beyond me, but replacing a battery in a Ford doesn't invalidate the warranty on the Ford charging system or car. Ford isn't allowed to discriminate on replacement batteries as long as they meet industry standards.

A drop in pack sure, but Tesla already does that. Many swaps are done from donor cars into new ones.

WTH? Why would you do that?

Edit add: I really mean that on buying the Tesla. I think many especially with your handle and car you own might think Tesla's are just batteries hooked up to wheels. This isn't my 1963 Case 630 tractor that I could work on if I was 12. This is a computer and has things that can really hurt people.

I do own a Tesla, I have built my own EV and I have used mismatch Tesla modules with success. The BMS can adjust as long as the variance is not too great. EVs are easy if you have the right parts. I could put any battery pack in my bus that will fit as long as it delivers 100-130 volts at XX amps.

Tesla packs, while a marvel in manufacturing efficiency making them difficult to deconstruct boil down to volts, amps, temperature sensors, cooling loops, cell monitoring, cell balancing etc. There are only a few inputs and outputs to match. It is not rocket science.

 

[Tinker71]

Tesla will be putting larger packs into the Cybertruck soon, likely when the Foundation Series is over. Current pack size is not enough for towing and general work truck use.

The question of the hour is, will the bolt pattern change? I contend that unless the cell voltage changes the cell count and parallel strings will not. They might have fewer cells on the RWD edition, but that is different. The mounting will be the same between the trims.

I suppose with lots of reliability data they might glue a pack in which could drop the weight down a little. That would suck for future changes.

 

[Outdoors]

Again you are misdirecting the discussion. The right to repair requires some interpretation which is beyond me, but replacing a battery in a Ford doesn't invalidate the warranty on the Ford charging system or car. Ford isn't allowed to discriminate on replacement batteries as long as they meet industry standards.

WTH? Why would you do that?

Well if you owned a 75d and wanted it to be a 100D. Third party can do the swap. Why would you want to do this? Your 8-year unlimited battery coverage is up and you want a better pack. You can take a salvaged battery that is in let's say 95% condition and put it in the other model.

I think you're talking about a 12 volt battery in a Ford. If you were to replace the EV batteries modules in a Ford in the battery that you put in malfunctioned and wrecked the car electronically or any other system, yes you would not be covered under warranty. Same thing in a Tesla. Now if you put that battery pack in and the windshield wiper broke that was under warranty you would be covered.

My guess is that if you mess with the battery, they're going to try to extrapolate any changes or things that you made via that battery that could potentially wreck another system in the car.

I know you're saying that somebody's going to come along with a third party battery that's going to be just as good and maybe better than the original older battery that's in every EV out there. I just don't see a business case for that. It's going to be very labor intensive. Many different models. Maybe if we got to some standardization of pack design across multiple companies maybe. A big maybe

Let's not confuse the Magnuson warranty act in the right to repair. They are two different things.

Tinkering is much different when one has to scale an operation. Profit margin is very slim. Customer after presented with new pack cost doesn't see the value. They buy a new car.

This isn't the most mature recycling like a 12v. So the money back on the core isn't there yet to make it a viable operation that is worthy of investing.

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