Tesla "Yes, We CAN" Master Plan Part 3 vs Toyota "NO, We Can't" Plan whine whine whine

[firsttruck]

Tesla sees an obstacle and figures out how to go over, around, under or just knock over the obstacle.

Toyota waits (and waits some more) for someone else to do the work then whines if you criticize them for doing little and then has tons of excuses why it is too hard and not their job.


Tesla publicly released it's plan for the world to see and experts and scientists could review.

Will Toyota do the same?

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This Is Why Toyota Isn't Rushing to Sell You an Electric Vehicle A corporate document reveals why Toyota will focus more on hybrids over EVs.
Published 2023May17
By Tom McParland
https://jalopnik.com/toyota-focusing-on-hybrids-not-electric-vehicles-1850440908

A Toyota dealer contact sent me this PDF that was sent directly by Toyota corporate to explain to the dealer network why they should expect to see more hybrids on their lots and not so many EVs or PHEVs.

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Toyota tells its dealers it can make 90 hybrids with a single EV battery. Electric Viking asks what kind of calculator are they using for their sketchy numbers.
May 19, 2023
The Electric Viking

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Tesla Master Plan Part 3
The Tesla Team, April 5, 2023
https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-3

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Tesla's Master Plan Part 3: Transportation ** Not your father's master plan **
Apr 6, 2023
Dr. Know-it-all Knows it all

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Cliff’s Notes for Investor Day // Context, Insights, Implications
There was so much packed into investor day that it needs Cliff's Notes. This video re-frame's investor in terms of themes and provides context, insights, and discusses the implications.
Mar 29, 2023
The Limiting Factor

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Sponsored

 

[cvalue13]

Ignoring the rest, just as a matter of principle this “Electric Viking” dude is an influencer kool-aid putz and “citing” him risks guilt by association

It’s like people who complain about Fox News and citing MSNBC, or vice-versa

The Toyota memo contains nothing new or “secret” - it clearly explicates one, widely-held, view of the strategy toward auto transition to electrification

Elon just talked for 2 minutes about how lithium refining is both extremely difficult and the primary bottleneck to near term sufficient battery proliferation, and everyone nods their head in agreement

Toyota says there’s material bottlenecks to near term sufficient battery proliferation, and the kool-aid cops rush in shouting “BIG OIL SHILL!!!”

 

[firsttruck]

Ignoring the rest, just as a matter of principle this “Electric Viking” dude is an influencer kool-aid putz and “citing” him risks guilt by association
...

So you make personal attacks against “Electric Viking” instead of responding to the points he made.

Right now I would have no qualms with being associated with “The Electric Viking”.
So far I have not heard any racist, sexist, asshole-ish stuff from him.

Some of his video cover news I don't hear elsewhere.

...
Toyota says there’s material bottlenecks to near term sufficient battery proliferation, and the kool-aid cops rush in shouting “BIG OIL SHILL!!!”

Tesla published a plan on how the goal can be accomplished.

If Tesla plan has errors or bad assumptions, Toyota should point them out instead of continuing to whine it can't be done.

Toyota, GM, Nissan all had lots more money and early opportunities (late 1990s) but under-funded Tesla put in the extra effort to get us to the point BEVs are starting to directly compete with ICE.

Over last 20 years, Tesla accomplished stuff ( mass production of BEVs, charging network) that Toyota, GM, Nissan certainly had the capability to do BUT they didn't even really try.

Some whine (Toyota) while others (Tesla) gets shit done.

Remember Toyota once owned $50 million shares of Tesla but they sold those shares a few years too early and missed $1.6 billion of return. Besides not making BEVs, Toyota's financial guys seem to have poor judgement too.

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Toyota Sells Stake in Tesla
In 2010, Toyota acquired a $50 million stake in Tesla and then the companies started to jointly develop RAV4 electric vehicles in Canada in 2011 and later sold about 2,500 units over three years amid culture clashes and recalls. In 2016 Toyota formed its own unit to develop electric cars.
June 3, 2017
Bloomberg
https://www.industryweek.com/finance/article/22018589/toyota-sells-stake-in-tesla

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Here’s how much money you’d have if you invested $1,000 in Tesla 1, 5 and 10 years ago Published 2021
By Nicolas Vega
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/04/how...u-invested-in-tesla-1-5-and-10-years-ago.html

.....
Go back a few more years and your return is even greater. Five years ago, on Nov. 2, 2016, Tesla was trading at around $38 per share. A $1,000 investment then would have grown 3,025% and be worth around $31,286 as of Wednesday morning. Over the same time period, the S&P 500 index would have given you a 142.4% return. If you had invested in Tesla in 2011, you would have a five-figure return.

.....
Shares of Tesla are up more than 50% since the beginning of October, and the company’s market cap has grown to more than $1.2 trillion. It only passed Toyota, now the second-largest automaker in terms of market cap, last year, but is now nearly $900 billion more valuable.

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[cvalue13]

So you make personal attacks instead of responding to the point about 90 hybrids with only 1kWh battery packs.

“attacks” toward a YouTube influencer? Sure, if that’s what you’d like to call it. I take them to be fair play

Tesla published a plan on how the goal can be accomplished.

where? Master 3?

i think we’re equivocating the word “plan” a little, but fine. Seemed to me to be stating what the world would need, not a “plan” as to how to finance and accomplish. That’s the difference between saying “world needs X amount of refining capability” vs “here’s how to achieve X amount of refining capability”

In any event, I didn’t disagree with anything in Tesla’s plan - and I personally side with it

but siding with a strategy is different from dismissing out of hand the challenges, or dismissing out of hand that reasonable people can arrive at alternative strategies

If Tesla plan has errors or bad assumptions, Toyota should point them out instead of continuing to whine it can't be done.

The 2 slides you posted exactly describe, as much as 2 slides can, what Toyota sees as the practical challenges, and it’s alternative strategy vision

you just label it “whining”

not exactly a substantive critique, either

an equally unsubstantive critique could be leveled at Elon’s discussion earlier this week

I wouldnt abide by either unsubstantive form of critique

 

[cvalue13]

instead of responding to the points he made.

I can’t win for losing

make a brief injection, and get held down for not elaborating. Elaborate and get held down for being too wordy

here’s as much and as little as the Toyota memo says on the topic:

“
While US battery manufacturing is expected to increase significantly in the next few years, the pace of mineral mining and processing will not keep up, likely creating an imbalance between
the raw materials and final production.”

hard to say exactly what Toyota’s underlying assumptions are about battery composition, manufacturing cost deltas, etc.

As for Electic Viking, it’s hard to stomach his ad hominem claptrap to make it past the first 30 seconds, but if you force it:

he says Toyota says it’s too hard. You parrot it here. The slide doesn’t say that.

he says the Toyota says there’s not enough lithium in the world. The slide doesn’t say that.

funnily, Elon just got done telling you how hard it is not to find lithium, but to refine it - but you didn’t call that “whining.” He said they were forced to themselves get into lithium refining in order to address the issue.

The rest of the Viking video keeps on with this sort of claptrap.

I don’t feel I need to go further in the describing how this clown of a YouTuber takes a sensationalist, intellectually dishonest, misreading of 2 generic slides, in order to basically rile up his viewers into a “hit subscribe” fury

To anyone with any critical reasoning, it’s obvious, and doesn’t need lengthy parsing aside from:

Ignoring the rest, just as a matter of principle this “Electric Viking” dude is an influencer kool-aid putz and “citing” him risks guilt by association

 

[firsttruck]

Toyota ‘investing like crazy' in EV batteries; but says big changes 20 yrs away
May 20, 2023
The Electric Viking 146K subscribers 1,881 views

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[tidmutt]

So you make personal attacks against “Electric Viking” instead of responding to the points he made.

Right now I would have no qualms with being associated with “The Electric Viking”.
So far I have not heard any racist, sexist, asshole-ish stuff from him.

Some of his video cover news I don't hear elsewhere.

I watch a lot of youtubers, Electric Viking seems like a decent guy. He will say something is a rumor, unsubstantiated etc. Gives his opinion, I don't see anything wrong with that. His videos are sometimes a bit rough around the edges.

He's currently in Thailand with his two sons and his wife who was diagnosed with terminal cancer. A gofundme raised significant sums so they were able to head to Thailand for some treatments not available in OZ. Personally, if I was her, I would have done the same as the Australian docs gave her zero chance, so far her tumors are shrinking. He's since put his house on the market to continue to fund the treatment. I hope she makes it, it may be a long shot, I feel for the guy and of course for his wife and especially his two boys.

He talks about his boys often, they have their own channel about their BMX competitions (not sure if it's still called that).

Honestly, he seems like a decent guy making some extra $$$ on youtube. Doesn't cost me anything to watch him, he has some good info at times, or conjecture or whatever.

Seems to me like @cvalue13 just labels anyone on youtube/social media as some kind of evil "influencer".

 

[cvalue13]

Seems to me like @cvalue13 just labels anyone on youtube/social media as some kind of evil "influencer".

evil?

Monroe is on YouTube/socials. Plenty of similar examples of serious, thoughtful, and intellectually honest folks on YouTube/socials.

In contrast with Clickbait influencers with an obvious bias towards sensationalist content creation. And honestly I don’t mind them at all for their candy-indulgence qualities.

It’s a different matter when people start citing them as a source of balanced or well reasoned authority. I can think of a few ANTI-Tesla personalities that are no different but for their bias, who if I posted here as authority would be laughed out. Rightfully so.

fact is, Viking (the YouTube persona) engages in the exact same brand and degree of intellectually dishonest clickbait content as his doppelgänger counterparts that are ANTI-Tesla. And I dislike them both (as content personas) equally.

All that said, any of my comments or criticisms were directed at the thin veil of a persona Viking dude creates online.

That’s painfully obvious as separate from, and have no idea, who he is as a human,m; even less idea regarding the terrible circumstances of his family at the moment. as a husband and father of three young ones, I couldn’t begin to stomach the same circumstances.

so if your intent was to suggest that anything I’ve said about his YouTube content was remotely relevant to his personhood, or the condition of his family, it’s a pretty low blow.

 

[tidmutt]

evil?

Monroe is on YouTube/socials. Plenty of similar examples of serious, thoughtful, and intellectually honest folks on YouTube/socials.

In contrast with Clickbait influencers with an obvious bias towards sensationalist content creation. And honestly I don’t mind them at all for their candy-indulgence qualities.

It’s a different matter when people start citing them as a source of balanced or well reasoned authority. I can think of a few ANTI-Tesla personalities that are no different but for their bias, who if I posted here as authority would be laughed out. Rightfully so.

fact is, Viking (the YouTube persona) engages in the exact same brand and degree of intellectually dishonest clickbait content as his doppelgänger counterparts that are ANTI-Tesla. And I dislike them both (as content personas) equally.

All that said, any of my comments or criticisms were directed at the thin veil of a persona Viking dude creates online.

That’s painfully obvious as separate from, and have no idea, who he is as a human,m; even less idea regarding the terrible circumstances of his family at the moment. as a husband and father of three young ones, I couldn’t begin to stomach the same circumstances.

so if your intent was to suggest that anything I’ve said about his YouTube content was remotely relevant to his personhood, or the condition of his family, it’s a pretty low blow.

Honestly not sure why you feel the need to criticize. They all attempt to encourage clicks, it's what they do. He doesn't seem any more egregious than any of the other Tesla youtubers.

Fair enough that you didn't intend to cast aspersions on him as a person. Happy to leave it there.

 

[cvalue13]

Honestly not sure why you feel the need to criticize.They all attempt to encourage clicks, it's what they do. He doesn't seem any more egregious than any of the other Tesla youtubers.

I could be miss-remembering, but I don’t think I’ve seen you rushing in with the same level-headedness energy when someone here posts a Tesla-critical YouTuber employing the exact same brand of content

but here? y’all rushing in with “he’s not said anything racist” and “his family has cancer” and “don’t know why you feel the need to criticize”

I don’t really care about Toyota. Haven’t owned one since 1996.

I don’t even really care about how some of y’all treat car companies the same way sad office workers treat professional sports teams.

doesn’t mean I won’t type it out on an Internet forum, though

that’s the extent of *my* “need”

how about you?

*this message brought to you by Screwball*

 

[Crissa]

I think the Electric Viking is usually wrong, but that doesn't mean he's wrong here.

The battery in a Model Y is about 75kWh. A Prius Prime has a 13 kWh battery, the others have like a 9 kWh battery.

A BEV will beat the carbon level of Toyota hybrid in about five years.

I have no idea how their math would slice it down to 90.

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

$35K Tesla Model 3 SR+ with 56 kWh (usable) LFP battery has 253 miles EV range @60 mph.

$32K Toyota Camry Hybrid has 1.5 KWh battery and 2 miles EV range @ max. 25 mph.

One Tesla BEV 56 kWh / 1.5 kWh Toyota Hybrid (non-plugin) = 37 Toyota Camry Hybrid (non-plugin).

37 Toyota Camry Hybrid (non-plugin) with 1.5 KWh battery @ 2 miles in EV mode = 74 miles
total EV range @ max. 25 mph.

Things are even worse when considering operating costs since the Toyota Camry Hybrid (non-plugin) uses expensive gasoline & higher maintenance ICE to charge it's batteries instead of much cheaper grid electricity or solar at home like Tesla EV.

Another problem with Toyota's numerous hybrid scheme is multiple little batteries have shorter lives, less total usable range, and slower charging speed than single larger battery like used in BEV.

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ECO Mode and EV Mode: What Do They Do?
June 26th, 2017 by Paul Schnell
Nick Borges-Silva for Wilsonville Toyota (OR, USA)
https://www.wilsonvilletoyota.com/blog/driving-safely/eco-mode-and-ev-mode-what-do-they-do/

.....
EV Mode EV (short for Electric Vehicle) mode is only available in hybrid vehicles and is much more particular in its uses than other driving modes. If a vehicle is running in EV mode, the vehicle is only pulling power from its battery. This results in the potential for very efficient driving, but it also means the vehicle in question doesn’t have access to as much power as it normally would.

EV mode typically works for just up to one mile and is only applicable under certain conditions at very low driving speeds. Due to these restrictions, it’s best to reserve EV mode for driving extremely short distances that don’t require much speed such as moving a vehicle out of a garage or driving in a parking lot.

.....
Can a hybrid car go at high speeds when in EV mode?
August 31, 2022 at 7:33 am, Amy Ryan (Wilsonville Toyota) says: With most hybrids, they can only work in this mode for a mile or so under certain conditions, so you really can’t go at high speeds when in EV mode.

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How fast can Camry hybrid go in EV mode?
Press the EV button to run the electric motor only.
EV Mode allows you to operate your vehicle as a
** fully electric vehicle at speeds up to about 25 mph for a limited range. **
When EV Mode is initiated, the vehicle self-checks several conditions (including the hybrid system and coolant temperature, the battery is sufficiently charged, acceleration speed and pedal positioning) and only if conditions line up will the vehicle then enter EV Mode.
If any of these requirements are compromised, your vehicle will return to Normal Mode and display a message that reads, EV Mode currently not available.
https://support.toyota.com/s/article/How-do-the-hybrid-dri-8422?language=en_US

* press pedal for too quick acceleration will switch from EV only mode to EV + ICE.

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Can you drive a Camry Hybrid without gas?
If I run out of gas, can I use electricity to drive a hybrid?

** NO, even if the battery is fully charged.

No. Though a hybrid vehicle can operate in electric-only mode when gasoline is in the tank, it is not designed to run without gasoline. Doing so could cause severe damage to the hybrid system, so drivers should be sure to keep gas in the tank at all times. Can a conventional hybrid vehicle run on electricity when it runs out of fuel?
Toyota.com
https://support.toyota.com/s/article/Can-a-conventional-hy-7666?language=en_US

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What is the difference between EV mode and eco mode in Camry Hybrid?
Note that eco mode is different from EV mode that you may find in some hybrid cars. Eco mode still uses fuel, while EV mode won't take any energy from the gas tank and will run solely on the electric car battery instead. When the eco mode button is engaged, the car's throttle becomes less reactive. What Is Eco Mode, and Should You Use It?
Progressive
https://www.progressive.com/answers/what-is-eco-drive-mode/

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[intimidator]

Tesla sees an obstacle and figures out how to go over, around, under or just knock over the obstacle.

Toyota waits (and waits some more) for someone else to do the work then whines if you criticize them for doing little and then has tons of excuses why it is too hard and not their job.


Tesla publicly released it's plan for the world to see and experts and scientists could review.

Will Toyota do the same?

------------------------------------
A Toyota dealer contact sent me this PDF that was sent directly by Toyota corporate to explain to the dealer network why they should expect to see more hybrids on their lots and not so many EVs or PHEVs.

------------------------------------

"Lack of Charging Infrastruce"

This is a real thing. If you have driven any amount of distance, with a NON-Tesla EV, you have experienced issues at some point in your trips. Whether that is a 350 KwH charger only giving you 40-50 Kwh, or having to wait for a charger pod, or finding 3 out of 5 machines bricked.

Yesterday I went to dinner with a group of people. Everyone of them was not interested in an EV. They all had "heard" there is no place to charge "those electric vehicles".

If a wide swath of people BELIEVE there is an issue with the public charging network (or like about 50% of Americans that can not charge at home) they will buy plug-in hybrids from Toyota, or others.

Also, price, i.e. monthly payment is a huge factor for many buyers.

 

[Flaskman]

I would imagine that Tesla should leave Toyota in the dust. But you cannot discount the quality of the Toyota hybrid line. They get great milage. They are a huge company that does a good job at what they do. As far as pure EV's go they are and will be playing catch up. My business experience tells me that you do not necessarily have to be first to the table. It is far cheaper and easier to watch and emulate rather than be the innovator. That is what makes separates Tesla from the rest of the pack. Keep it up Elon.

 

[cvalue13]

$35K Tesla Model 3 SR+ with 56 kWh (usable) LFP battery has 253 miles EV range @60 mph.

$32K Toyota Camry Hybrid has 1.5 KWh battery and 2 miles EV range @ max. 25 mph.

did the Toyota slides prescribe that their comparator was the Camry model you’re comparing? because if not, how are you sure you’re not just describing a strawman?

the Toyota slides did prescribe that their competitor limiting reagent was the “raw materials,” while you instead make your comparator on kWh and range, which are not necessarily direct analogues to total raw materials - so how are you sure you’re not describing a strawman?

this sort of list goes on. In part because the 2 Toyota slides actually say very little and with nearly zero context or statements of presumptions.

so, as with Viking, it seems people are just asserting that Toyota has said stupid stuff, while having no idea what Toyota is saying.

But one last observation along these lines:

whatever the presumptions behind the slide’s premises, the conclusion - in bold - it is running towards is “The overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle.”

which leads me to believe it’s possible that Toyota is assuming, but not clearly stating (and that’s a fault) some sort of average usage-adjusted baseline. what I mean is, if the average car travels less than 30mi a day, then the bulk of emissions of that vehicle are addressed by any battery that displaces only those 30 miles. If they’re weighting their data in this way, it would perhaps be related to their 1:6:90 rule?

I really don’t know, because the slides don’t make it clear

but for the same reasons, neither does Viking et al

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