4680 dry cathode battery for the CyberTruck. When and what range?

[HaulingAss]

The 4680 assumptions that were at the heart of Battery Day in 2020 included two significant elements... a significant reduction in battery production costs, for which the dry cathode process was key; and a significant increase in cell energy density. Tesla optimistically expected to have both those elements nailed down very quickly.

I don't know why you think this was going to happen very quickly. Battery day happened less than 4 years ago and what was rolled out for all to see was a six year plan for 4680 cell development. They actually didn't say they would nail it down very quickly, they said the benefits would be gradually realized through the anticipated six-year development program.

Sponsored

 

[kpanda17]

a year ago, we were hearing about gen 3a hybrid and 3b cathode dry, feel allowing for Elon time, we'd expect 3b Jan/Feb at a 10% + increase in range, AWD with AS tires is 370 and 10% brings us to 407 miles and the ext pack moves up to 143 miles, combined 550 miles
this would bring the CT back into competitive range
the silverado ev at 450 does it with AS tires also

 

[HaulingAss]

a year ago, we were hearing about gen 3a hybrid and 3b cathode dry, feel allowing for Elon time, we'd expect 3b Jan/Feb at a 10% + increase in range, AWD with AS tires is 370 and 10% brings us to 407 miles and the ext pack moves up to 143 miles, combined 550 miles
this would bring the CT back into competitive range
the silverado ev at 450 does it with AS tires also

The Cybertruck is already more than competitive, with it's 318-340 mile range. It's outselling all the rest combined.

I've not even come close to wishing I had more range and I'm always off on rugged roads in the mountains, driving between the Salish Sea (Puget Sound) and into the N. Cascades. People who need (or think they need) significantly more than 300 miles of EPA range will have to compromise and get a Silverado. I don't envy them.

 

[CTOWannabe]

The Cybertruck is already more than competitive, with it's 318-340 mile range. It's outselling all the rest combined.

I've not even come close to wishing I had more range and I'm always off on rugged roads in the mountains, driving between the Salish Sea (Puget Sounds) and into the N. Cascades. People who need (or think they need) significantly more than 300 miles of EPA range will have to compromise and get a Silverado. I don't envy them.

Obviously your use case is the only one that matters to everyone else that might have a different use case. /sarcasm

For me, I have a regular 240mile trip (one way, so 480 round trip) i take 20 times a year, and there are no super chargers in the middle. The posted speed limits are 85mph, and average traffic runs at 95mph. The Cybertruck literally cannot make that leg of the trip as there is a supercharge 40 miles away (which is too close so the CT would be at over 80% charge getting there) and 175miles away, which would maybe or maybe not let me get to the charge with near zero capacity and if anything goes wrong, I'm stuck there.

I personally need at least 270 miles or real range at real speed, which probably means around 420 claimed range. But for that necessity, I would frankly not need more than 100mile range for the other 90% of my driving. But I'm not going to decree, since it does not work for me, it wont work for anyone else. That would be rather presumptuous.

I'm glad it works for you.

Rivian has a long range 420 mile model (but only 370 miles with the off road package) that comes near the range I need, but it's 4.5' bed is a joke. The rivian has way better suspension handling btw. Its McLaren Cross Linked Hydraulic system is insanely good.

Hopefully more competition brings better cars.

Considering Tesla is not even at scale and has exhausted the waiting list and now opened up sales to the general public for the cybertruck, that means as they build and double capacity, they will start to either have more competitive features (like longer range) and drop the price to boost sales, or there will be a LOT of cybertrucks sitting unsold.

 

[HaulingAss]

Rivian has a long range 420 mile model (but only 370 miles with the off road package) that comes near the range I need, but it's 4.5' bed is a joke. The rivian has way better suspension handling btw. Its McLaren Cross Linked Hydraulic system is insanely good.

No, the Rivian does not handle better, that's been proven already. If you complain about the ride or handling on the Rivian forum, the regulars will tell you, "Of course, it's a truck, what did you expect". As if that answers their problem.

The Cybertruck rides more smoothly and quietly on all surfaces, and has less body lean into the corners, regardless of what you call the McLaren Cross Linked Hydraulic System on the R1T. It sounds good on paper, but the Cybertruck handles better in the real world. The advantage of the cross-linking is that the dampers can sort of double as anti-roll bars, but not as effectively as the very beefy front anti-roll bar the Cybertruck comes equipped with (in addition to a smaller rear anti-roll bar). The Rivian has to rely on cross linking the hydraulics for all anti-roll functions. This cannot effectively control the roll of such a heavy vehicle without negatively impacting the traction and ride over bumps.

Probably the biggest difference is that Tesla went all out to optimize the suspension link geometry at all ride heights and suspension compression levels. The did this by engineering the motors and gear boxes to allow the longest possible lengths on the half-shafts and therefore all the suspension links also. There is some brilliant drivetrain engineering to allow these ultra-long suspension links which minimizes unwanted changes to the alignment of the wheels as the suspension works through its range.

In contrast, Rivian has crammed the suspension links into the smallest space possible (due to the width of the motor/gearbox assemblies and where the axle half-shafts exit the gear reductions). It's far from an optimal design from a handling perspective because it causes the toe and camber to change rather drastically depending upon where the wheel is in it's arc of compression or extension. This is why Rivians have tire wear issues if driven too much in Eco mode (or the highest suspension level). It also causes toe and camber settings to change when hitting bumps, leading to a certain amount of "bump steer", a very undesirable handling quality. It also limits the range of height adjustment of the suspension. That's why the Cybertruck can go lower and be raised higher without tire wear issues.

The added high-speed stability of 4-wheel steering of the Cybertruck (and low speed maneuverability) is the final nail in the coffin when comparing the ride and handling of the Cybertruck to the R1T. And I'm going to ignore the advantages of the Steer-by-Wire, even though that allows for a faster turn-in through corners (or recoveries) that can benefit from a faster turn-in.

If you want to learn more actual facts about these differences, and the effect they have on the actual ride and handling of the two vehicles relative to each other, I highly recommend this Mountain Pass Performance video comparing the suspensions and it's effect on ride and handling (because MPP has pushed the handling limits of both stock vehicles extensively):

Tesla Cybertruck VS Rivian R1T Suspension & Brake Comparison Up Close! (youtube.com)

The Cybertruck, with equivalent grip tires, will blow the doors off the R1T on a road race course, and it will return a smoother, more comfortable ride while doing it. No real comparison.

 

[HaulingAss]

Obviously your use case is the only one that matters to everyone else that might have a different use case. /sarcasm

I think you missed the part where I said, "People who need (or think they need) significantly more than 300 miles of EPA range will have to compromise and get a Silverado. I don't envy them."

Yes, there are people who would benefit from more than 300 miles of range, but they are edge cases, like the one you described.

 

[CTOWannabe]

No, the Rivian does not handle better, that's been proven already. If you complain about the ride or handling on the Rivian forum, the regulars will tell you, "Of course, it's a truck, what did you expect". As if that answers their problem.

The Cybertruck rides more smoothly and quietly on all surfaces, and has less body lean into the corners, regardless of what you call the McLaren Cross Linked Hydraulic System on the R1T. It sounds good on paper, but the Cybertruck handles better in the real world. The advantage of the cross-linking is that the dampers can sort of double as anti-roll bars, but not as effectively as the very beefy front anti-roll bar the Cybertruck comes equipped with (in addition to a smaller rear anti-roll bar). The Rivian has to rely on cross linking the hydraulics for all anti-roll functions. This cannot effectively control the roll of such a heavy vehicle without negatively impacting the traction and ride over bumps.

Probably the biggest difference is that Tesla went all out to optimize the suspension link geometry at all ride heights and suspension compression levels. The did this by engineering the motors and gear boxes to allow the longest possible lengths on the half-shafts and therefore all the suspension links also. There is some brilliant drivetrain engineering to allow these ultra-long suspension links which minimizes unwanted changes to the alignment of the wheels as the suspension works through its range.

In contrast, Rivian has crammed the suspension links into the smallest space possible (due to the width of the motor/gearbox assemblies and where the axle half-shafts exit the gear reductions). It's far from an optimal design from a handling perspective because it causes the toe and camber to change rather drastically depending upon where the wheel is in it's arc of compression or extension. This is why Rivians have tire wear issues if driven too much in Eco mode (or the highest suspension level). It also causes toe and camber settings to change when hitting bumps, leading to a certain amount of "bump steer", a very undesirable handling quality. It also limits the range of height adjustment of the suspension. That's why the Cybertruck can go lower and be raised higher without tire wear issues.

The added high-speed stability of 4-wheel steering of the Cybertruck (and low speed maneuverability) is the final nail in the coffin when comparing the ride and handling of the Cybertruck to the R1T. And I'm going to ignore the advantages of the Steer-by-Wire, even though that allows for a faster turn-in through corners (or recoveries) that can benefit from a faster turn-in.

If you want to learn more actual facts about these differences, and the effect they have on the actual ride and handling of the two vehicles relative to each other, I highly recommend this Mountain Pass Performance video comparing the suspensions and it's effect on ride and handling (because MPP has pushed the handling limits of both stock vehicles extensively):

Tesla Cybertruck VS Rivian R1T Suspension & Brake Comparison Up Close! (youtube.com)

The Cybertruck, with equivalent grip tires, will blow the doors off the R1T on a road race course, and it will return a smoother, more comfortable ride while doing it. No real comparison.

You’re wrong. It rides way better. The cross linked suspension is way better. I drove both. It’s not close.

the cross linked suspension keeps the car level in turns breaking and acceleration, and even when yanking the wheel hard in turns side to side in a slalom, yet remains supple over potholes.

if you put the cybertruck in soft mode so it’s supple over potholes and rough roads, but yank the wheel side to side and it leans like the tower of Pisa. If you put it in firm sport mode, it leans less but then it’s more jarring over potholes and a rough road. The cybertruck suspension is nice for a truck, but you can’t have it be both level and supple. Only the hydraulic cross linked suspension, and to far lesser extent, mag ride suspensions, offer both.

The cross linked hydraulic suspension is the best suspension, period, full stop. It’s why McLaren puts it into their higher tier super cars. The cybertruck is better than the rivian in most other ways, but the suspension for road use isn’t one of them (for off-road it’s likely better in some ways).

ive driven both. You’re simply wrong. And it’s not close.

As for the links to “learn” more, I’ve pooped and forgotten more about this than you’re likely to know in this or the next lifetime.

 

[CTOWannabe]

I think you missed the part where I said, "People who need (or think they need) significantly more than 300 miles of EPA range will have to compromise and get a Silverado. I don't envy them."

Yes, there are people who would benefit from more than 300 miles of range, but they are edge cases, like the one you described.

“Think they need” is highly presumptuous, so is your valuation of edge case. I can call your case something too, but will refrain.

Trucks have a far greater diversity of cases than some seem to be capable of imagining or actually comprehending the use cases of actual workers using them for work.

Also I guess people buying the 400+ mile model S and 350 mile range model 3/Y etc are all “edge” cases ?

 

[Woodrick]

Obviously your use case is the only one that matters to everyone else that might have a different use case. /sarcasm

For me, I have a regular 240mile trip (one way, so 480 round trip) i take 20 times a year, and there are no super chargers in the middle. The posted speed limits are 85mph, and average traffic runs at 95mph. The Cybertruck literally cannot make that leg of the trip as there is a supercharge 40 miles away (which is too close so the CT would be at over 80% charge getting there) and 175miles away, which would maybe or maybe not let me get to the charge with near zero capacity and if anything goes wrong, I'm stuck there.

I personally need at least 270 miles or real range at real speed, which probably means around 420 claimed range. But for that necessity, I would frankly not need more than 100mile range for the other 90% of my driving. But I'm not going to decree, since it does not work for me, it wont work for anyone else. That would be rather presumptuous.

I'm glad it works for you.

Rivian has a long range 420 mile model (but only 370 miles with the off road package) that comes near the range I need, but it's 4.5' bed is a joke. The rivian has way better suspension handling btw. Its McLaren Cross Linked Hydraulic system is insanely good.

Hopefully more competition brings better cars.

Considering Tesla is not even at scale and has exhausted the waiting list and now opened up sales to the general public for the cybertruck, that means as they build and double capacity, they will start to either have more competitive features (like longer range) and drop the price to boost sales, or there will be a LOT of cybertrucks sitting unsold.

Two things:

Charge to 100% if needed. It won't harm your battery.
What you need is a charger in the middle. Big story right now is that chargers have doubled in the last 4 years.

And it sounds like you are talking about a route in Texas, since that's one of the few areas that have that amount of distance and speed.

What about CCS chargers? Do they exist along your route?

 

[CTOWannabe]

I think you missed the part where I said, "People who need (or think they need) significantly more than 300 miles of EPA range will have to compromise and get a Silverado. I don't envy them."

Yes, there are people who would benefit from more than 300 miles of range, but they are edge cases, like the one you described.

Two things:

Charge to 100% if needed. It won't harm your battery.
What you need is a charger in the middle. Big story right now is that chargers have doubled in the last 4 years.

And it sounds like you are talking about a route in Texas, since that's one of the few areas that have that amount of distance and speed.

What about CCS chargers? Do they exist along your route?

I very much agree. I did not check CSS, that’s a good point. If I just get one in the middle it would work great. I’ll check for it. I do think as more chargers are added, it becomes less and less of an issue. That said, in some parts of the country that may be years away.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[ChristoN]

Hi all:

It seems that the 4680 dry cathode battery is at least to prototype stage.

https://www.techspot.com/news/104119-tesla-rolls-out-first-ever-cybertruck-dry-cathode.html
https://www.notebookcheck.net/First...-to-increase-its-energy-density.875816.0.html

I was curious what the collective thinks about when the CyberTruck will get it as standard part of production, and what it will mean for range?

My guess is that maybe 6 months from now we might see it hit production. That is a blind optimism guess of course.

With regard to range, I would *think* they want to keep the weight and physical size of the battery close to the same. If so, my guess is that would yield maybe a 20% boost in range.

I would love to hear what the more knowledgeable folks here (pretty much everyone here being more knowledgeable than myself) think.

Tesla said it will go into production in the 4th quarter this year. No need to speculate, it’s being manufactured on “mass production equipment”. Doing things in house means it will get to production much quicker than if they were outsourcing the tech. I’m also positive there are multiple prototypes with various chemical compositions. No official word on whether it will have increased energy density but it’s likely since Maxwell had a clear path to hitting 400+wh/kg.

 

[CTOWannabe]

Tesla said it will go into production in the 4th quarter this year. No need to speculate, it’s being manufactured on “mass production equipment”. Doing things in house means it will get to production much quicker than if they were outsourcing the tech. I’m also positive there are multiple prototypes with various chemical compositions. No official word on whether it will have increased energy density but it’s likely since Maxwell had a clear path to hitting 400+wh/kg.

Wow that's super helpful. Do you remember when/where you saw them saying it will go into production with the dry tech? A link perhaps? Thanks!

 

[ChristoN]

Wow that's super helpful. Do you remember when/where you saw them saying it will go into production with the dry tech? A link perhaps? Thanks!

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-4680-battery-cell-program-major-milestones-q2-2024/

“ We’ve built our first validation Cybertruck with dry cathode process made on mass production equipment, which is a huge technical milestone, and we’re super proud of that. We’re on track for production launch with the dry cathode in Q4. And this will enable cell costs to be significantly below available alternatives which was the original goal of the 4680 program,” Moravy said.

 

[CTOWannabe]

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-4680-battery-cell-program-major-milestones-q2-2024/

“ We’ve built our first validation Cybertruck with dry cathode process made on mass production equipment, which is a huge technical milestone, and we’re super proud of that. We’re on track for production launch with the dry cathode in Q4. And this will enable cell costs to be significantly below available alternatives which was the original goal of the 4680 program,” Moravy said.

Thanks so much, I completely missed that. We do know tesla time lines are often very aspirational. But fingers crossed, here's hoping!

 

[ChristoN]

Thanks so much, I completely missed that. We do know tesla time lines are often very aspirational. But fingers crossed, here's hoping!

I’m sure it will happen. They are racing to bring the price down and offer an advantage over the growing competition, whether it be price, FSD or more range. If it doesn’t happen in the 4th quarter it will happen sometime early next year. I’m cancelling my order because of this news. Production capacity is steadily increasing and to keep demand up they will need to drop the price and improve upon the specs.

Sponsored