Baja Cybertruck returns to US. Parked for viewing in Orange County!

[PilotPete]

The EPA needs to add a sensitivity analysis to make comparisons.

Having worked for the gubament for 20 years, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, nahhh. Get the EPA out of this part of the business. Companies that stretch the truth will get bad reputations and lose sales. Companies that are more realistic will gain from it. As it is right now, companies can hide behind "It's what the government makes us do and their rules, not ours!" Without the EPA in the range and mpg business, you then open up the potential for customers to get their money back under threat of false advertising suits. Way mo betta.

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[JBee]

Having worked for the gubament for 20 years, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, nahhh. Get the EPA out of this part of the business. Companies that stretch the truth will get bad reputations and lose sales. Companies that are more realistic will gain from it. As it is right now, companies can hide behind "It's what the government makes us do and their rules, not ours!" Without the EPA in the range and mpg business, you then open up the potential for customers to get their money back under threat of false advertising suits. Way mo betta.

Well I can agree with that, but for me it's more either or. Do it properly or don't do it at all. Providing shonky data is like providing no data at all when you're trying to compare something.

 

[SparkChaser]

Look at the exception to this. VW. They sold lies for years only the regulatory agency was able to work it out over time.

 

[ldjessee]

Look at the exception to this. VW. They sold lies for years only the regulatory agency was able to work it out over time.

Close, it was a university that was followed up by a regulatory agency… According to NYTimes.
“The on-road testing in May 2014 that led the California Air Resources Board to investigate Volkswagen was conducted by researchers at West Virginia University.”
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...al/vw-diesel-emissions-scandal-explained.html

 

[cvalue13]

Well I can agree with that, but for me it's more either or. Do it properly or don't do it at all. Providing shonky data is like providing no data at all when you're trying to compare something.

the SAE white paper I linked before was instead suggesting the EPA just needs to add to its methods for BEVs a couple of additional numbers

EPA has worked just fine for ICE. everyone’s familiar with the quirks of ICE milage. they come to the EPA numbers prepared for what they mean (or don’t mean), which limitations are pretty consistent across seasons, and geographic locations (climate-wide).

with BEV the EPA methods are just as accurate, but don’t yet double-click on a few key factors that can negatively effect range, and may do so differently across seasons and geographic locations.

put differently, SAE’s take is that the EPA figures for BEV are no more or less accurate than for ICE, but to provide material consumer info they could use adding some figures that help consumers understand what factors will cause material deviation.

All in all, I take SAE’s point to be: ICE or BEV, EPA figures have never been nor will be accurate outside the test parameters, but BEV’s could use some info on high and low temp results.

and I do think adding just that much would materially make EPA figures as modestly useful as they’ve ever been for ICE.

Also notably, the SAE calls out manufactures practice of simultaneously citing an EPA figure based on 100-0% testing while going on to manufacture-recommend 90-20% battery maintenance charging. My words not theirs, but that’s a bit like saying “if you drive it off a cliff fast enough, our truck can fly.”

 

[JBee]

the SAE white paper I linked before was instead suggesting the EPA just needs to add to its methods for BEVs a couple of additional numbers

EPA has worked just fine for ICE. everyone’s familiar with the quirks of ICE milage. they come to the EPA numbers prepared for what they mean (or don’t mean), which limitations are pretty consistent across seasons, and geographic locations (climate-wide).

with BEV the EPA methods are just as accurate, but don’t yet double-click on a few key factors that can negatively effect range, and may do so differently across seasons and geographic locations.

put differently, SAE’s take is that the EPA figures for BEV are no more or less accurate than for ICE, but to provide material consumer info they could use adding some figures that help consumers understand what factors will cause material deviation.

All in all, I take SAE’s point to be: ICE or BEV, EPA figures have never been nor will be accurate outside the test parameters, but BEV’s could use some info on high and low temp results.

and I do think adding just that much would materially make EPA figures as modestly useful as they’ve ever been for ICE.

Also notably, the SAE calls out manufactures practice of simultaneously citing an EPA figure based on 100-0% testing while going on to manufacture-recommend 90-20% battery maintenance charging. My words not theirs, but that’s a bit like saying “if you drive it off a cliff fast enough, our truck can fly.”

As I posted previously, I think a change is being brought about now because of just how sensitive EV's are on range in comparison to ICE. Having x times the energy capacity does wonders for hiding in-efficiency, by just shear brute force of kilojoules. The changing conditions really takes a hit on EV"s, so standardised tests are really difficult to aggregate in a meaningful way that can be conveyed to the non-technical public.

The problem is how to dumb down the sensitivities for users who have no interest in the subject, beyond what it will cost to run per mile, and can I get there non-stop.

So maybe, those two numbers could be provided as a separate indicators on the range graph, that shows the likelihood in colours and % of achieving those results as well. These could then be updated from time to time by using actual user data that can be collected, and once again show the likelihood distribution on the graph. You could then look at the graph, pick the green colour and be fairly confident to achieve that range with a moderate driving style. BTW in Germany they have an additional consumption number and show at city, rural and highway speeds.

Maybe a summer winter one needs to be shown as well, although given the hot summer this year in the US, I'd expect the HVAC loads to be similar, so it would be better to list HVAC loads separately overall. My ICE powered VW van does this on the dash, and tells me how much fuel my A/C used. You could then have one for summer/winter to show the variability.

But in saying all this, it's difficult to get people to drive EV's how they should be driven, with hyper-miling techniques, rather than the brute force fossil approach, and because of that the higher performing EV's, with more HP (like Tesla), will always pay the range price through enthusiastic drivers. Some in fact by an EV for the performance.

So overall, a fairly convoluted rats-nest to decipher and hard to really convey the intricacies in a meaningful and easy way.

 

[HaulingAss]

But in saying all this, it's difficult to get people to drive EV's how they should be driven, with hyper-miling techniques, rather than the brute force fossil approach, and because of that the higher performing EV's, with more HP (like Tesla), will always pay the range price through enthusiastic drivers. Some in fact by an EV for the performance.

I've found it's not over-enthusiastic application of power that kills range/efficiency, it's the braking that follows, even if that braking is regen, but especially if it's friction braking. I never hesitate to nail the juice pedal but, if I'm interested in efficiency, I just make sure to lay off the pedal before I reach a speed above that which I can cruise at, without needing to go into regen.

Unfortunately, that means I can only nail the juice pedal for 1-2 seconds in most situations. My favorite is at the stop lights on the State highway, in pole position. I can floor it for around 3 1/2 seconds, until I hit 65 mph. It's not unusual to see the cars behind and beside me haven't even crossed the intersection by the time I've leveled off at around 65 mph with them tiny in my rear-view mirror.

 

[JBee]

I've found it's not over-enthusiastic application of power that kills range/efficiency, it's the braking that follows, even if that braking is regen, but especially if it's friction braking. I never hesitate to nail the juice pedal but, if I'm interested in efficiency, I just make sure to lay off the pedal before I reach a speed above that which I can cruise at, without needing to go into regen.

Unfortunately, that means I can only nail the juice pedal for 1-2 seconds in most situations. My favorite is at the stop lights on the State highway, in pole position. I can floor it for around 3 1/2 seconds, until I hit 65 mph. It's not unusual to see the cars behind and beside me haven't even crossed the intersection by the time I've leveled off at around 65 mph with them tiny in my rear-view mirror.

I admit it's fun driving a Tesla, in particular it's acceleration. Although I also avoid regen braking as much as possible to improve range, I also tend to not accelerate hard, unless I really want/have too, when you pull up alongside.

High acceleration actually uses more energy as well, so ideally you'd accelerate with about 1/4- 1/3 throttle, to keep up with traffic, and do any speed changes as slow and smooth as possible, depending on traffic. Every change in the steady state inertia of the vehicle costs energy, so the smoother and the least amount of acceleration you feel, the more energy efficient you are. I often get commented on how smooth I drive, simply because over the decades of driving Prius and the like, you really get enough feedback on how to change you driving style to get the most of it. In saying that, I'm not by any means a slow driver, being raised in Germany on the autobahns. So whatever gains I make from driving style, I most definitely loose in speed, whenever I can. That's why its so important to find someone with a fast van to slipstream behind.

 

[PilotPete]

So whatever gains I make from driving style, I most definitely loose in speed, whenever I can. That's why its so important to find someone with a fast van to slipstream behind.

I do the same thing in my car! There have been unofficial tests showing up to 40% increase in mileage (this was before EVs were a big deal) if you could tuck in behind a semi/trailer. If you’ve ridden a motorcycle or a convertible, you can feel the difference in the wind and the turbulence when you get into the “shadow” of the semi. But I’ll find a fast sprinter van or camper or even just a large SUV to fall in behind that is doing close to the speed I want to drive and enjoy!

 

[Alan]

Used to do in my 1960 36hp Bug all the time in the early 70’s. I could go over 60mph. Drove that bug up and down the alcan several times when 1800 miles of it was still dirt.

 

[SparkChaser]

My bug went places some willies jeeps would not go.

 

[HaulingAss]

High acceleration actually uses more energy as well, so ideally you'd accelerate with about 1/4- 1/3 throttle, to keep up with traffic, and do any speed changes as slow and smooth as possible, depending on traffic.

True, flooring it is not the most efficient use of energy. But acceleration is not a very big component of consumption in most driving scenarios because its only a small percent of most drive cycles. That means you can hypermile on a 60-mile drive, keeping cruising speeds reasonably subdued, and still throw in 8 or 10 full-throttle launches, without totally killing your trip efficiency number.

So, while a full throttle launch might only be 78% efficient through most of the launch, and a gentle acceleration might return 97% efficiency, it's only a small component of the total energy consumed for the trip, so it doesn't put your trip efficiency numbers in the dirt. At least not in the same way as two of three braking events from 60 mph. Avoiding braking is far more important than accelerating gently. And it is possible to accelerate too gently for maximum efficiency.

I used to hypermile in my gas cars, mostly for fun, but also to reduce emissions and fuel consumption. An EV is so cheap to keep charged, I only hypermile for fun and so I don't sweat the launches. Too much fun to warp time and space and wake up the people around me who are driving in a semi-comatose state. I'm often driving in lose, relaxed traffic composed of a lot of big SUV's and trucks, mixed in with a few small economy cars, that are driving in a relaxed manner to save on their weekly gas bill and prolong the economic pain at the pump. I like to drive just like them until I happen to end up in pole position at a red light. When the light turns green, I distance myself from the pack, and cruise by myself on an open road, no one in front, no one behind.

I've seen other Performance Tesla launch in the same situation, when I was surrounded by slow traffic, and it does have the effect of waking you up a bit, of shocking your visual sensibilities, just watching the difference in comparison to the slow pack. The fact that it's silent to other drivers just heightens the effect because it makes it appear so effortless and nonchalant.

The best part of a pole position launch, and it happens almost without fail, is it will light a fire under the ego of someone caught off guard by the launch. They will see that Tesla zoom silently into the distance and say, "By gawd, I''m not letting that Tesla show me up, I'm gonna make him feel foolish when I catch up to him in my old faithful gas truck/SUV". So they then proceed to cruise 15-25 mph over the limit, just to catch up to me. It's their ego making them act dumb. I don't care, and I never feel foolish when they catch up, because I was just tooling along at the speed limit (or close enough to not be risking a ticket), while they are bringing on pain at the pump and risking a ticket, just to show me up. I have to imagine it's a very hollow victory for them once they finally catch up to me (because it's obvious I'm not trying to go fast).

Even though I'm an environmentalist, I love to watch other motorists increase their pain at the pump. I can't help but wonder how many of them, after seeing me do a launch from a light, think to themselves, "Oh boy, what an idiot, he must not care about his gas bill,... oh, wait, that car is electric, he doesn't need to buy gas!" Anything to get people thinking about how their behavior is limited by the need to buy gasoline.

 

[JBee]

True, flooring it is not the most efficient use of energy. But acceleration is not a very big component of consumption in most driving scenarios because its only a small percent of most drive cycles. That means you can hypermile on a 60-mile drive, keeping cruising speeds reasonably subdued, and still throw in 8 or 10 full-throttle launches, without totally killing your trip efficiency number.

So, while a full throttle launch might only be 78% efficient through most of the launch, and a gentle acceleration might return 97% efficiency, it's only a small component of the total energy consumed for the trip, so it doesn't put your trip efficiency numbers in the dirt. At least not in the same way as two of three braking events from 60 mph. Avoiding braking is far more important than accelerating gently. And it is possible to accelerate too gently for maximum efficiency.

I used to hypermile in my gas cars, mostly for fun, but also to reduce emissions and fuel consumption. An EV is so cheap to keep charged, I only hypermile for fun and so I don't sweat the launches. Too much fun to warp time and space and wake up the people around me who are driving in a semi-comatose state. I'm often driving in lose, relaxed traffic composed of a lot of big SUV's and trucks, mixed in with a few small economy cars, that are driving in a relaxed manner to save on their weekly gas bill and prolong the economic pain at the pump. I like to drive just like them until I happen to end up in pole position at a red light. When the light turns green, I distance myself from the pack, and cruise by myself on an open road, no one in front, no one behind.

I've seen other Performance Tesla launch in the same situation, when I was surrounded by slow traffic, and it does have the effect of waking you up a bit, of shocking your visual sensibilities, just watching the difference in comparison to the slow pack. The fact that it's silent to other drivers just heightens the effect because it makes it appear so effortless and nonchalant.

The best part of a pole position launch, and it happens almost without fail, is it will light a fire under the ego of someone caught off guard by the launch. They will see that Tesla zoom silently into the distance and say, "By gawd, I''m not letting that Tesla show me up, I'm gonna make him feel foolish when I catch up to him in my old faithful gas truck/SUV". So they then proceed to cruise 15-25 mph over the limit, just to catch up to me. It's their ego making them act dumb. I don't care, and I never feel foolish when they catch up, because I was just tooling along at the speed limit (or close enough to not be risking a ticket), while they are bringing on pain at the pump and risking a ticket, just to show me up. I have to imagine it's a very hollow victory for them once they finally catch up to me (because it's obvious I'm not trying to go fast).

Even though I'm an environmentalist, I love to watch other motorists increase their pain at the pump. I can't help but wonder how many of them, after seeing me do a launch from a light, think to themselves, "Oh boy, what an idiot, he must not care about his gas bill,... oh, wait, that car is electric, he doesn't need to buy gas!" Anything to get people thinking about how their behavior is limited by the need to buy gasoline.

Another one I like doing in the 16t truck is slowing down real early when I see a red light ahead. More often than not, I just end up cruising past all the people who got to the lights first, breaked hard to stop, and are still trying to accelerate when I cruise past at speed on green. Only works if you lane is clear, but that is also a bit my fault when I hold people up behind me, and those in front still make it over.

On the freeways another traffic trick I virtually always use, is driving at a larger distance to car in front at a xonstant speed to even out the traffic flow, when you have stop and go traffic. Now from time to time I even get a friendly bellow from a horn, but although it doesn't particularly help me, except for staying safe, it quite often reduces the compression wave behind me with everyone going slower, but at a steady pace without stopping. Ideally, everyone should have radar cruise as this does it best. In Germany there was a study decades ago when they first came out, where they said that even if just 10% of cars had radar cruise, then that would avoid nearly all stop and go traffic and traffic compression waves.

My current 400mile one way shopping trips are less about traffic though. Sometimes I only see a 5-6 cars on the whole trip, and maybe a dozen trucks in the evenings. Bought some new "laser" spot lights which go for over a mile. Looks like aerial defence search lights when I come over the hill. Lol, Bit silly, but it takes me over 30 seconds just to get where my lights hit, so ideal for our straight bits and looking for wildlife at night. One stretch of that road is some 90miles in one line, there's one bit you can see lights on the road coming down the hill, and it still takes like 10minutes to go past them. I've done the trip in just under 4 ¹/² hours which a decent average given it has some windy bits and about 9 towns you have to actually slow down to drive through. All on single lane Aussie type hwy. You can see the iron laying on either side of the road.

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