Canadian Prices Suck

[ajdelange]

But no ......everyday US has more than 1,000 people dying from it.

That's because they gather in groups and don't wear masks. Very simple to understand. All part of Darwinian evolution.

Yes rich Canadian people can go to the US for plastic surgery, do not want to get into that.

They could I guess but the ones I know who have contemplated that plan to go to Mexico. Everyone I know who has chosen to go to the States has gone for seriously threatening conditions and has done that because the treatment needed wasn't available in Canada or the quality was deemed better in the US. I'm an older guy and so are most of my friends and aquaintances. Once you are over 65 it's pretty much free but you do pay a premium which comes out of your Social Secruity for part of the coverage and buy insurance for the rest.

Actually, if you want pretty good medical care at a cheap price Thailand has some real bargains and Americans throng there for pretty elaborate procedures. Only thing scaring folks away is that if something goes wrong there is no one to sue.

Why are you taking about Health care on a Cybertruck forum????

If you'll read the posts you'll see the connection.

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[Crissa]

Yeah, alot of you guys are old! ^-^;

I think that only says positive things about the Cybertruck if it's drawing in older, conservative buyers. Welcome to the future, I'm glad you found a piece you want to try!

-Crissa

 

[Cybtnk]

Don’t worry. I am expecting my tri motor Cybertruck to be around $200,000 Australian Dollars. The concept of world wide pricing is bullshitten by the time governments have their way. A standard Model 3 is $70000..!!!!!

Don’t say that I was thinking around $140,000 maybe cheaper if somehow it would be exempt from LCT.

 

[VI Tesla]

Buying a Tesla in Canada is generally only for the rich. If we compare USD vs CAD pricing, we see a multiplier of about 1.6. This is way beyond the currency exchange rate which is around 1.3. An entry level Model Y will set you back about $80,000 CAD with advanced autopilot.

Single Motor Cybertruck ~$64k + autopilot = $74k CAD
Dual Motor Cybertruck ~$80k + autopilot = $90k CAD
Tri-Motor Cybertruck ~$112k + autopilot = $122k !!!! CAD

And since Canada is both huge and very cold, anything less than the 500 mile range battery has very limited usefulness. These prices are out of control. I could buy a top of the line pickup truck for half this cost.

And for my American friends, no, Canadians do not have higher salaries. we have low salaries and high taxes, and a currency with terrible purchasing power. That's what socialism gets you.

I posted this ages ago. Start lobbying, we need incentives for trucks in Canada, why little cars but nothing for trucks that are actually used day in and out for the betterment of the economy?

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/incentive-lobbying.461/#post-4730

 

[Hugh McG]

Don’t say that I was thinking around $140,000 maybe cheaper if somehow it would be exempt from LCT.

Unfortunately electric vehicles are not luxury car tax free in Australia so no. The lct will bring it up to 200-250k.

 

[Hugh McG]

Don’t say that I was thinking around $140,000 maybe cheaper if somehow it would be exempt from LCT.

They increased lct for electric vehicles Lea from 75-77k.... wow big deal

 

[Héli]

Unfortunately electric vehicles are not luxury car tax free in Australia so no. The lct will bring it up to 200-250k.

Bonjour Australia visited your country, loved it!

 

[Héli]

That's because they gather in groups and don't wear masks. Very simple to understand. All part of Darwinian evolution.

They could I guess but the ones I know who have contemplated that plan to go to Mexico. Everyone I know who has chosen to go to the States has gone for seriously threatening conditions and has done that because the treatment needed wasn't available in Canada or the quality was deemed better in the US. I'm an older guy and so are most of my friends and aquaintances. Once you are over 65 it's pretty much free but you do pay a premium which comes out of your Social Secruity for part of the coverage and buy insurance for the rest.

Actually, if you want pretty good medical care at a cheap price Thailand has some real bargains and Americans throng there for pretty elaborate procedures. Only thing scaring folks away is that if something goes wrong there is no one to sue.

If you'll read the posts you'll see the connection.

Older than you! Lucky you!

 

[Bob Dyck]

As my formerly Canadian doctors say, “Canada’s health care system is great, as long as you are healthy.”

 

[jerhenderson]

As my formerly Canadian doctors say, “Canada’s health care system is great, as long as you are healthy.”

no that's the US system... the least efficient in the developed world.

 

[CyberMoose]

Single Motor Cybertruck ~$64k + autopilot = $74k CAD
Dual Motor Cybertruck ~$80k + autopilot = $90k CAD
Tri-Motor Cybertruck ~$112k + autopilot = $122k !!!! CAD

Where are you getting these figures? The Cybertruck page on the Tesla website for Canada doesn't list prices next to the options like it does on the US version of the page. I assumed that reason was because of how much the difference between CAD and USD keep changing; if you promise a CAD price and the value of CAD goes up, we would overpay while if the value of CAD went down, we would underpay.

And since Canada is both huge and very cold, anything less than the 500 mile range battery has very limited usefulness. These prices are out of control. I could buy a top of the line pickup truck for half this cost.

Tesla might not announce everything they do but they are aware of the battery range decrease in cold weather and they have been working to improve that. The model Y which did cold weather testing in Alaska has a heat pump installed to keep some components such as the air conditioning compressor running even in cold weather (the AC won't actually be on) and it will transfer the heat from those components to other areas such as the cab and the battery (which will improve range)

Also speaking of our cold weather, most Canadians such as myself know what it's like to need to have a jump starter or have someone else come and jump start your vehicle because the battery didn't have enough charge to turn over the engine. I will be very happy to not have to worry about that with my Cybertruck.

I'm also going to assume you aren't aware of what top of the line means if you think you will get a top of the line pickup truck for half the cost of the 500 mile range cybertruck, maybe mid teir.

And for my American friends, no, Canadians do not have higher salaries. we have low salaries and high taxes, and a currency with terrible purchasing power. That's what socialism gets you.

Blame that on the stupid people who keep screaming about their minimum wage and how that doesn't give them the cost of living after countless economic studies showed that it did. The only thing that raising minimum wage in Canada did was benefit people who worked minimum wage and still lived with parents and for the majority of Canadians lost hours, lost benefits, some lost businesses, and we all watched our dollar fall to where it is now.

 

[ajdelange]

The model Y which did cold weather testing in Alaska has a heat pump installed to keep some components such as the air conditioning compressor running even in cold weather (the AC won't actually be on) and it will transfer the heat from those components to other areas such as the cab and the battery (which will improve range)

They all have a heat pump. The thing you call an "air conditioner" pumps heat from a warm cabin or battery or inverter or motor to the warmer outside air. The difference with the Y is it has a valve arrangement which also allows it to pump heat from colder outside air to a warmer cabin, battery etc. The compressor is a critical heat pump component regardless of the direction of flow.

 

[CyberMoose]

They all have a heat pump. The thing you call an "air conditioner" pumps heat from a warm cabin or battery or inverter or motor to the warmer outside air. The difference with the Y is it has a valve arrangement which also allows it to pump heat from colder outside air to a warmer cabin, battery etc. The compressor is a critical heat pump component regardless of the direction of flow.

Heat pumps have been more common in houses, not cars. A traditional ICE vehicle would never need one since the engine is the main source of heat and that is transfered everywhere. But no, they don't all have them, they Model Y has them. Technically the first EV to have them was the Nissan Leaf and Tesla is thankfully following suit.

This heat pump as I already mentioned will keep other unneeded components running and store that heat in a sort of thermal resevoir that will transfer heat to where it is needed (cabin/battery). This is significant because the heater in a tesla is basically like a big toaster oven element, which is not very efficient. The heat that is generated by other components can generate heat about 300% more efficiently that running that heating element. This won't completely replace the element, as this will not generate heat as quickly as a heating element, but it is taking a step in the right direction to improve battery life in extreme cold temperatures.

 

[ajdelange]

But no, they don't all have them, they Model Y has them.

Yes, they do. You just don't appreciate, nor do most people, that what you have been calling an "air conditioner" is a heat pump. A heat pump is a device that given an input of external energy, can move heat from a cold reservoir to a hot reservoir. My X has one. Your Y has one. The difference between the X and the Y is that in the X it is a unidirectional heat pump. It can only pump heat from the car to the ambient. In the Y it can also pump heat from the ambient into the car thus being able to use the mass of air around the vehicle as a heat source.

This heat pump as I already mentioned will keep other unneeded components running and store that heat in a sort of thermal resevoir that will transfer heat to where it is needed (cabin/battery).

That's not how a heat pump works. The heat reservoir, counter intuitive as it may seem, is the cold outside air. Liquid R134a (a refrigerant with a low boiling point) is sprayed into an evaporator (looks like a radiator) with outside air flowing over it. Even if this air be as cold as 10 °F the refrigerant still boils extracting heat from that air. The air exits the evaporator at an even lower temperature. The evaporated refrigerant, now a gas, is then compressed. When it exits the compressor it is a hot gas at high pressure. This hot gas is passed to another heat exchanger where it condenses back to a liquid giving up the heat energy it absorbed from the cold air. The other side of that condenser heat exchanger could be a liquid circulated through it and the battery for the purposes of warming the battery or it could be air from the cabin in which case the cabin would be warmed. The liquid from the condenser is then returned to the evaporator to complete the cycle. To cool rather than heat the roles of evaporator and condenser are reversed by reversing the direction of refrigerant flow.

This is significant because the heater in a tesla is basically like a big toaster oven element, which is not very efficient.

An electric heater is very efficient. For all intents and purposes, 100% efficient.

The heat that is generated by other components can generate heat about 300% more efficiently that running that heating element.

The other elements in the car that produce heat (motors, inverters, the battery itself) are, we hope extremely inefficient as heat producers as the heat they produce is energy that we can't use for traction. But when we need heat we don't want to dump that energy overboard but rather route it to a place where it can be used. For example, the heat inevitably lost by the inverter can, in cold weather, be routed to a cabin heat exchanger rather than to an external one. A large part of the improved thermal efficiency of the Y comes from the "Octovalve" which allows coolant to be routed to exploit this.

This won't completely replace the element, as this will not generate heat as quickly as a heating element,

The difference between an electric heater and a "heat pump" as the lay person understands it is that if you put 1 kW of energy into an electric heater 1 kW of heat comes out but if you put 1 kW of energy into the compressor of a heat pump you may well get 3 kW of heat out with the other 2 kW being heat taken from the outside air in the process of boiling the R134a. If you need 3 kW of heat with an electric heater you must take 3 kW from the battery. If you need 3 kW of heat from a Y you need only take 1 from the battery (provided it isn't too too cold outside).

While the heatpump clearly produces more heat than the heater it can only do so when the cold reservoir temperature is high enough that a small investment in electricity returns a reasonable harvest of free heat. As temperatures get lower the COP (ratio of heat delivered to energy invested) starts to diminish to the point where the majority of the output heat is from the energy input. In those cases supplemental heat is needed and so the electric heater is retained. Of course when operating in temperatures that low there is no range advantage to having a "heat pump".

 

[CyberMoose]

Yes, they do. You just don't appreciate, nor do most people, that what you have been calling an "air conditioner" is a heat pump. A heat pump is a device that given an input of external energy, can move heat from a cold reservoir to a hot reservoir. My X has one. Your Y has one. The difference between the X and the Y is that in the X it is a unidirectional heat pump. It can only pump heat from the car to the ambient. In the Y it can also pump heat from the ambient into the car thus being able to use the mass of air around the vehicle as a heat source.

That's not how a heat pump works. The heat reservoir, counter intuitive as it may seem, is the cold outside air. Liquid R134a (a refrigerant with a low boiling point) is sprayed into an evaporator (looks like a radiator) with outside air flowing over it. Even if this air be as cold as 10 °F the refrigerant still boils extracting heat from that air. The air exits the evaporator at an even lower temperature. The evaporated refrigerant, now a gas, is then compressed. When it exits the compressor it is a hot gas at high pressure. This hot gas is passed to another heat exchanger where it condenses back to a liquid giving up the heat energy it absorbed from the cold air. The other side of that condenser heat exchanger could be a liquid circulated through it and the battery for the purposes of warming the battery or it could be air from the cabin in which case the cabin would be warmed. The liquid from the condenser is then returned to the evaporator to complete the cycle. To cool rather than heat the roles of evaporator and condenser are reversed by reversing the direction of refrigerant flow.

An electric heater is very efficient. For all intents and purposes, 100% efficient.


The other elements in the car that produce heat (motors, inverters, the battery itself) are, we hope extremely inefficient as heat producers as the heat they produce is energy that we can't use for traction. But when we need heat we don't want to dump that energy overboard but rather route it to a place where it can be used. For example, the heat inevitably lost by the inverter can, in cold weather, be routed to a cabin heat exchanger rather than to an external one. A large part of the improved thermal efficiency of the Y comes from the "Octovalve" which allows coolant to be routed to exploit this.


The difference between an electric heater and a "heat pump" as the lay person understands it is that if you put 1 kW of energy into an electric heater 1 kW of heat comes out but if you put 1 kW of energy into the compressor of a heat pump you may well get 3 kW of heat out with the other 2 kW being heat taken from the outside air in the process of boiling the R134a. If you need 3 kW of heat with an electric heater you must take 3 kW from the battery. If you need 3 kW of heat from a Y you need only take 1 from the battery (provided it isn't too too cold outside).

While the heatpump clearly produces more heat than the heater it can only do so when the cold reservoir temperature is high enough that a small investment in electricity returns a reasonable harvest of free heat. As temperatures get lower the COP (ratio of heat delivered to energy invested) starts to diminish to the point where the majority of the output heat is from the energy input. In those cases supplemental heat is needed and so the electric heater is retained. Of course when operating in temperatures that low there is no range advantage to having a "heat pump".

What you are saying is correct but you have to look at this from another perspective.

First of all, yes the electric heater is 100% effective, meaning if you put 1kWh you will get that much energy in heat towards the cabin, I just meant that it is a big drain on your battery to do this. The heat pump works just as you described it, but depending on the outside temperature, this can be 1-4x more efficient at heating the vehicle.

Since refrigerant boils at such a low temperature, the heat can be transfered after the compressor to the cabin or battery and then when it gets to the evaporator, it can use the outside temperature to cool it. This won't be perfected because as I already mentioned, this will take longer to heat up a cabin than a PTC heater and obviously in the winter, people want heat quickly.

Another issue with this is extemely freezing temperatures when it goes below -20° celcius, this will only return the heat from the energy that you put into it and outside temperature won't generate any heat for you. When you get to even colder temperatures, this won't be helpful at all. This is unfortuate for Canadians such as myself, but that's not something that is often constant and usually we only get temperatures that low on some days in a couple months out of the year.

But the main point of all of this is what I originally said, Tesla is aware of the issue and are working on it. I don't know what they will come out with, maybe on battery day we will learn about some way to increase the range of battery at cold temperatures, maybe they will have a battery heating mode which doesn't require cabin heating while charging for Teslas that aren't parked in a heated garage, or maybe they have another method that they will bring out.

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