Cyberbeast vs Cybertruck AWD Comparison

[JBee]

]

Maybe, like they Plaid, the offer a >$20K track package to fix some of the ways in which it’s not a sports car

Now you’re at $140K for a truck that stops more like a sports car, but still likely isn’t remotely dialed in suspension-wise for being thrown around corners etc

If we’re comparing prices of the resulting CT, the seemingly more relevant “sports car” would be another straight-line drag car, like the 2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 … MSRP $100K and a good clip faster than the CT

Yeah I just don't think Porshe is a good comparison for the CT.

I mean even the Plaid has its limits even with the new track brakes. One hot lap of Nurburgring is one thing, but being able to do two is quite something else for an EV.

This is where physics becomes reality.

The whole method of Teslas to achieve "peak performance" is predicated on the ability of both electric motors and batteries ability to provide peak power for short periods of time, until both the "underrated" motor and battery get warm and they have to thermal throttle to stop things from melting.

Teslas power envelope exists only until everything starts to overheat.

This is simply the difference between "rated power" and "peak power".

Tesla is not using +300HP "rated" motors, it's only using 300HP "peak" motors. That is why they are good for under 10 second quater miles, but get increasingly worse over longer periods of maximum output. Just like brake fade, just in reverse.

This is not a slight on EV's, rather just a reminder that pushing the limits for seconds, is not the same as sustaining those power levels for hours. This level of performance comes at a cost, and that needs to be paid, both in physics and in the cost of engineering it into a machine.

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[SentinelOne]

"Help me justify CB purchase besides the fact that the only apparent gain is speed"

From what is known, there's not much logical reason aside from the few things mentioned! eg TV, Speed, white interior, maybe logo....

I myself will get the CB - waiting 4 years is my justification to go big!

 

[PilotPete]

The questions he specifically asked was how the AWD compared to the CB, so no need to defend Teslas CT pricing..

Pete,

Thanks for the detailed analysis with Porsche Taycan and I couldn't agree with you more, CB is a monster of a vehicle when comparing specs and price.

My post was more towards "Help me justify CB purchase besides the fact that the only apparent gain is speed"

I'm already sold on the CB but do have some concerns now with insurance costs and unique issues due to lower production numbers and with less of them on the road,

Sorry guys.

What I was trying to show is the market on BEVs where there is a jump in performance holds out a whole lot more than $20k. EVEN if speed is the ONLY thing that is different. For basically the same speed delta, the Taycan costs more than $70K more. So using that "new math" you see on TikTok, if you get the CyberBeast, you will have made over $50K!By 3 of them, and you'll have turned a profit!

 

[PilotPete]

Yeah I just don't think Porshe is a good comparison for the CT.

I mean even the Plaid has its limits even with the new track brakes. One hot lap of Nurburgring is one thing, but being able to do two is quite something else for an EV.

This is where physics becomes reality.

The whole method of Teslas to achieve "peak performance" is predicated on the ability of both electric motors and batteries ability to provide peak power for short periods of time, until both the "underrated" motor and battery get warm and they have to thermal throttle to stop things from melting.

Teslas power envelope exists only until everything starts to overheat.

This is simply the difference between "rated power" and "peak power".

Tesla is not using +300HP "rated" motors, it's only using 300HP "peak" motors. That is why they are good for under 10 second quater miles, but get increasingly worse over longer periods of maximum output. Just like brake fade, just in reverse.

This is not a slight on EV's, rather just a reminder that pushing the limits for seconds, is not the same as sustaining those power levels for hours. This level of performance comes at a cost, and that needs to be paid, both in physics and in the cost of engineering it into a machine.

JB,

Are you familiar with the "'Ring"??? The Plaid's time was 7 MINUTES 25 SECONDS. That ain't "pushing the limits for seconds". And one hot lap of the ring takes the same time as almost 4 laps at the Albert Park circuit on the F1 track, and WAY more turns. If memory serves me, the ring has over 150 turns in just under 13 miles. And you are right, physics is a reality there. And no one gets lucky for just one "hot lap". And more than one lap there is a rarity for even ICE cars, as there are so many turns and acceleration/braking events, tires start to give themselves up well before the cars do. And Tesla's power envelope is greatly enhanced by their temp management, of both battery and motor.

 

[JBee]

JB,

Are you familiar with the "'Ring"??? The Plaid's time was 7 MINUTES 25 SECONDS. That ain't "pushing the limits for seconds". And one hot lap of the ring takes the same time as almost 4 laps at the Albert Park circuit on the F1 track, and WAY more turns. If memory serves me, the ring has over 150 turns in just under 13 miles. And you are right, physics is a reality there. And no one gets lucky for just one "hot lap". And more than one lap there is a rarity for even ICE cars, as there are so many turns and acceleration/braking events, tires start to give themselves up well before the cars do. And Tesla's power envelope is greatly enhanced by their temp management, of both battery and motor.

Been there done that. My boys loved it, they even got their "Ring Drivers licenses" there in the kids section. Museum was cool as well. (BTW I used to live in Germany for 2 decades)

To be clear I never said "for seconds" for the lap, although, technically acceleration can never be more than 10 to 12 seconds at a time before It reaches top speed and then you'd be braking for the next corner again, unless you are on the few straights the ring has.

The current production vehicle time is still nearly a minute faster being an ICE Porsche 911 GT2 RS.

And that would do more than one lap, as many do there.

My point is not to belittle MS performance there, nor even the much improved Plaid, rather only to demostrate and discuss what the limits of the various vehicles are, and how long their respective "peak performance" works in comparison to every other vehicle out there.

Just as another example, between F1 and Formula E, there is quite a difference in performance when including the race range and number of laps.

To do the the same amount of laps of a F1 race you would need a 550kWh battery pack in a "pure" electric F1 car.

The battery pack alone would weigh three times as much as a complete ICE F1 car with fuel.

You might say that is just the energy density of fuel comparison, but it is more than that, because as we know mass has serious implications on handling and trickles down as mass savings throughout the whole vehicle.

Also F1 cars now operate at over 50% efficiency, using a combination hybrid electric turbine combustion cycle.

So if we are truly doing apples to apples comparison we need to factor in how long performance can be maintained as well, otherwise we are just doing drag sprint comparisons from the intersection stop lights.

Maybe this post will demonstrate further what I mean with peak performance.

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/top-speed-limited.10773/post-216586

 

[PilotPete]

Been there done that. My boys loved it, they even got their "Ring Drivers licenses" there in the kids section. Museum was cool as well. (BTW I used to live in Germany for 2 decades)

To be clear I never said "for seconds" for the lap, although, technically acceleration can never be more than 10 to 12 seconds at a time before It reaches top speed and then you'd be braking for the next corner again, unless you are on the few straights the ring has.

The current production vehicle time is still nearly a minute faster being an ICE Porsche 911 GT2 RS.

And that would do more than one lap, as many do there.

My point is not to belittle MS performance there, nor even the much improved Plaid, rather only to demostrate and discuss what the limits of the various vehicles are, and how long their respective "peak performance" works in comparison to every other vehicle out there.

Just as another example, between F1 and Formula E, there is quite a difference in performance when including the race range and number of laps.

To do the the same amount of laps of a F1 race you would need a 550kWh battery pack in a "pure" electric F1 car.

The battery pack alone would weigh three times as much as a complete ICE F1 car with fuel.

You might say that is just the energy density of fuel comparison, but it is more than that, because as we know mass has serious implications on handling and trickles down as mass savings throughout the whole vehicle.

Also F1 cars now operate at over 50% efficiency, using a combination hybrid electric turbine combustion cycle.

So if we are truly doing apples to apples comparison we need to factor in how long performance can be maintained as well, otherwise we are just doing drag sprint comparisons from the intersection stop lights.

Maybe this post will demonstrate further what I mean with peak performance.

https://www.cybertruckownersclub.com/forum/threads/top-speed-limited.10773/post-216586

JB,

I would love to live there for a while and to have the chance to take my kids there! I get what you are saying about the peak performance, I was just pointing out that, while we aren't completely on par with ICE hypercars, we are nowhere near where we were in 2015 with the model S, or with the Citicard or the Enfield (Citi had 40mph top speed and 40 mile MAX range) Tesla has done an amazing job with closing the gap.

 

[delphiwiz]

I myself will get the CB - waiting 4 years is my justification to go big!

Same here, actually did order CB last week, it was a tough decison with 60% leaning towards AWD, already own a few LR Tesla's currently, so bought it simply based on the YOLO factor

Cons

1. High Wh/mile usage, but will deal with it, my current full size truck is no different, long distance trips will be a bit inconvenient and expensive compared to my other LR vehicles added with frequent stops, but fast charging should make up for it
2. Towing - I have towed 2 or 3 times with my current full sized truck, so not worried too much about it, but the consumption worries me, I value the vault space more than daily range, so no need for extender pack
3. Late arrival - hope its not too late as compared with AWD, don't know if they will let me switch to AWD if the wait for CB is too long
4. Will get me in trouble in a hurry, or coal rollers trying to race - that is entirely upto me, just need to behave and stay out of trouble and be nice
5. They will be building a lot of less of these, so problems will be isolated and exclusivley unique to the power train, hope they are ironed out early
6. New rear motors, powertrain, BAJA enabled suspension and unique CB features, this will take some time to thoroghly be tested by the community, similar to concern # 5
7. Resale clause in contract, so I am stuck with it for a while if it's a lemon, may keep the ICE full size for a bit longer

Pros

1. YOLO, fck it, just pulled the trigger, just happy to be one of the first
2. Got to have the best they offer, earned it after a long wait and a lifetime of hard work
3. Always wanted a plaid, have been waiting for Roadster 2, but this will do
4. Better built and engineered, and very powerful, plan on using it like a truck, no wrap, don't care to baby it, it will be full of tools
5. Better traction and stability with triple motor, in snow, mud etc, don't care about off-roading
6. It'll be a keeper for a few years, and will decide based on the first 4 years in warranty, or else it will be replaced by an AWD or Gen2 CT if released.
7. Power share is a great option, we don't get power failures much, but it will be a nice backup

 

[Rutrow]

Resale clause in contract, so I am stuck with it for a while if it's a lemon,

?

If it was a lemon you'd try to sell it to somebody else?!?

If it IS a lemon, lemon laws will apply and Tesla will HAVE to buy it back from you.*

*I'm trying to eliminate the CONS for you.

 

[delphiwiz]

?

If it was a lemon you'd try to sell it to somebody else?!?

I'd sell it to whoever wants it, even if it is Tesla, but not as much worried about lemon but more worried about buyer's remorse

But I don't think selling it after a year will be a problem with the long wait list, but this will be a keeper vehicle for years to come.

 

[2000prerunner]

This is incorrect. Both Torque vectoring and diff locks have their place and benefits.

Torque vectoring is not as good at low RPM as mechanucal diff locks.

Diff locks are passive traction devices that not only have zero response time and no lag, but also can infinitely vary torque from 0-100% without changing rpm to the other wheel.

This is particularly noticeable in loose and steep terrain, where directional stability cannot be maintained, and the vehicle ends up sideways and pointing off the road. Rivian has QM and has this exact issue.

Even if you frequency sync two motors on the same axle at the same rpm, alternating traction levels at each wheel well produce alternating torque to which the inverter must respond to to keep sync. A single motor with diff lock doesn't need to do this between wheels.

Torque vectoring on the other hand allows for better higher rpm control and intentional wheel slip for drifting, as well as for directional control. Like a reverse Stabilty Assist.

Neither of these are as slow as what is required for low latency SbW steering and feedback. Motor controllers are in the high kHz range, SbW user noticeable feedback in the 10's Hz range.

This is probably the most underrated and accurate comment ever stated thus far about the cyber truck and its off road ability. I’m sure more clueless people who are for sure going to off road the cyber with the unacceptable stock street tires and clownish 20” wheels at 50psi + are going to realize this … after someone post yet another “Off road fail video” due to cluelessness.

the cyber can be good if you pay attention:

-buy the dual motor and hope the lockers are manually “selectable”.
-using wheel spacers, or completely new aftermarket control arms / spindles hope 18” bead locking wheels can be installed with 35-37” Mud tires.
-deal with the air suspension b/c swapping in a king or fox 3.0” coil over would probably cause a lot of software issues without the air suspension working.

Ppl need to stop talking about the power frunk and other lame BS . If that’s the most interesting thing about the CT then maybe a model X/y is more your style .

 

[2000prerunner]

Kyle-out-of-spec: "On the trip-motor variant, the rear dual-motor unit is mechanically unlinked like most systems but it’s an induction system"

My guess is the two independent rear motor can be software logically locked together. ie. software can monitor speed of both wheels and 'sync' them up.

You would hope they would do this unlike epic rivian fail . It’s a very simple seeming solution. Right wheel speed = left wheels speed , no exceptions. Otherwise it will embarrass itself when u actually need a “locker “. I also hope they don’t have the locker only engage at low speed like many manufacturers do (in low range only ). In the off-road world having a rear “locked differential” under throttle, is very useful in the dirt. It’s how a 2wd trophy truck drives with a “spool.” In loose dirt /sand having wheels slip or scrub (by being “locked” ) is no big deal and essential for maintaining your speed / line and actually having fun. Obviously this does not apply to street driving or snowy, wet roads where traction stability is more important for peoples safety (although, arguably, for those who know , driving around with a rear lock differential on icy snowy roads can have advantages)

 

[Cpt. Picard]

The only meaningful difference is the extra rear motor, and that those two motor can do torque vectoring, which the AWD cannot at all.

What makes you think that AWD cannot achieve torque vectoring? Do you think that each wheel must have a dedicated motor before torque vectoring is achievable? Have you looked into how Subaru and Mitsubishi have brilliantly implemented torque vectoring in their rally cars?

Torque vectoring can be achieved by brake-based systems (similar to various types of traction and stability control systems), it can be achieved by an active differential (which is what Mitsubishi Evo is using), it can be achieved by dual-motor setup (that's what the CB is using, or will be using whenever it's actually a thing), and it can also be achieved by software (the implementation method for the CT AWD).

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